to think that 'the naughty step' technique totally sucks?

[PipPipPip]

Making kids sit on a naughty step seems mean to me! Plus it also seems to reward the kid's bad behaviour with a whole load of attention.

Am I being unreasonable to think it just, basically, sucks?

I started it with dd when she was nearly 3. Works really well for us. Usually by 2nd warning she will stop mis behaving. Every child is diff tho

The words time out get wrongly used a lot. It is supposed to be time out from positive reinforcement i.e. time without the thing that is increasing the behaviour (typically attention) but it only works if attention is increasing the behaviour. Otherwise it is usually punishment which can be effective but is quite a different thing.

Worked for us until we replaced our living room door with a glass panelled one. Then she thought it was hilarious to press her nose against the glass and pull faces. We then couldn't keep a straight face so we gave up with it.

YABU to think something 'sucks' when you've never used it!

Yeah, you're right - I was being a little bit cheeky/flippant by saying that. But yeah, I know, things will probably be different when my daughter is older. I'm in the misty-eyed 'my daughter is perfect' stage of things!!

Nospring, I think you're referring to how time out is used in behaviourist approaches. In that situation it's a technical term that I wouldn't expect most people to know. I don't think it's necessarily wrong to use the term time out to denote removal from a fraught situation, seeing as the original meaning of time out is to stop a basketball game when there is a problem. There's no point in being pedantic about it.

I think if my child was to hit another, I'd give all my attention to the victim. Hitting/biting etc is very serious in my eyes and we don't allow that kind of behaviour in any shape or form. My child would be in time out to reflect. If my child hurt the other child a second time, I'd take my child home so they miss all the fun. At the same time though I'd be trying to work out why my child hurt another and would make sure I paid closer attention to the childrens interactions genrally.

Pip, I was exactly the same thinking about the naughty step when I only had a small baby. However, you do IMO need something that is bigger than merely telling them NO and saying why what they are doing is wrong, because sometimes that has no effect at all. They push the boundaries and you need something else that says I really mean it

So if you're saying 'No jumping on the sofa' and they keep going back to it, taking them out of the room and putting them on the bottom step to speak to them is better than dealing with it in the same room. If they keep hitting and are frustrated with you, then putting them on the bottom step, giving them a bit of space and then talking to them helps.

It's the same sort of thing as the 'naughty step', but don't call it the naughty step and IMO rules like 'you have to stay there for a minute' are arbitrary and it is better to use it in a way you find useful - e.g. a change of scene, a place to calm down.

I agree that hitting another child can be dealt with in different ways, giving attention to the victim, making your child say sorry, taking them home etc. If it's you they're hitting it needs another strategy.

It seems to work for some parents, but it never worked for me. That thing where you nappy train in 5 days never worked for me either.

For very young children, I would remove from the situation, either by involving them in something else, or if we are out and about and everything is becoming overwrought, just going home.

Time out is good, but in the sense of having a pleasant, quiet, cool down place where you or your child go to simmer down and get your/their pre-frontal cortex back on-line, not as a punishment. If the naughty step isn't working for your friend - it may be that she is putting the wrong person in time-out.

It helps to realise that you may have to correct/re-direct a child many, many times before they get the message.

Too much talking isn't a good idea, particularly in the heat of the moment - its a bit like one of those Gary Larson cartoons "What the dog hears", or a Peanuts cartoon where the adults just go "Wah, wah, wah".

OP, 'ignoring bad behaviour and rewarding the good' sounds very nice in theory, but you try ignoring a toddler who is throwing things at their sister, or repeatedly snatching a toy even after being told not to.

The way it works in this house is if you do something (relatively minor) wrong you say sorry and give the person a cuddle. If you refuse to say sorry you go on the naughty step. If it's something really bad you may skip the 'say sorry' phase and get hauled to the step and left there!

DD1 (age 4) is also prone to the occasional huge voluminous tantrum- when that happens she gets sent to her room to calm down, but I don't treat it as a punishment, more just giving her some space to calm down.

I think it works, DD1 now very rarely gets sent to the naughty step, and once she's calmed down she usually will voluntarily talk about what happened and why she got upset.

Although from now on it will be the 'thinking step', I like it!

OP, 'ignoring bad behaviour and rewarding the good' sounds very nice in theory, but you try ignoring a toddler who is throwing things at their sister, or repeatedly snatching a toy even after being told not to.

The way it works in this house is if you do something (relatively minor) wrong you say sorry and give the person a cuddle. If you refuse to say sorry you go on the naughty step. If it's something really bad you may skip the 'say sorry' phase and get hauled to the step and left there!

DD1 (age 4) is also prone to the occasional huge voluminous tantrum- when that happens she gets sent to her room to calm down, but I don't treat it as a punishment, more just giving her some space to calm down.

I think it works, DD1 now very rarely gets sent to the naughty step, and once she's calmed down she usually will voluntarily talk about what happened and why she got upset.

Although from now on it will be the 'thinking step', I like it!

Pip had your friend only just started using the naughty step by the way? It can take a short while to establish but once it works properly, you can use it anywhere and everywhere. We use time out/stand and think. It's all carried out very calmly and my boy seems to like the boundaries. I think the key to it is being routine in and always following through.

Sorry if I was being pedantic, I guess I didnt explain myself very well. What I should have said was that it can be effective but it depends if it is addressing the reason for the behaviour. If the child is enjoying the attention then removing the attention is likely to be useful, if it is because they cant control their emotions then helping them learn to manage their emotions might be more useful etc etc. You really need to try and understand why they are behaving the way they are to work out the most effective way of managing.

If my child was to hit me, it would be stand and think/time out straight away. Not acceptable behaviour at all - I'd also wonder if my child needed to sleep/eat/was ill and try and remedy

I wonder if your friends child just wanted more attention?

Thanks everyone.

Noblegiraffe I agree with you about arbitrary rules such as 'you have to stay there for a minute'. And yes, using it as a space to think sounds much better to me. When I was a kid, my Mum was very good at diffusing the situation, taking me away somewhere to calm down or have a talk. She somehow didn't yell or use punishment, but perhaps that's because I'm an only child. I think I came out quite normal

Skybluepearl Yes, my friend had only recently started using this technique and it was getting her a bit flustered. And it made me wonder if 'getting Mum flustered' was kinda rewarding the bad behaviour? But perhaps when my friend gets used to the technique and stays calmer herself, it will work better?

For us it's never been the naughty step, you then sit them down and give them lots of negative attention until they give you a fake apology.

It's time out, or removal from the situation until they calm down. When they're young it can take time to get them used to it and many revisits. Pick up, put back down, pick up, put back down. I tried to do it calmly but being human failed many times ;) With persistence it did work.

My first was an explosive personality and he needed it. He's now 10 and there are occasions now where I tell him he needs to go to his room. Not as a punishment but go there, chill, come back down when you're calm enough to have a conversation. He goes up, gets involved in something, comes down happy, I calm down, we then had a conversation.

I've only had to put my youngest, now 7, in time out a handful of times. He's an easy going child and doesn't have huge mood swings. He gets thing wrong plenty of times, seeing as he's a child ;) but they're dealt with better by removal of privileges.

Skybluepearl It was getting late and my friend's kid was overtired. And also, her child is only 18 months old - IMO too young to even understand this stuff.

My friend is a LOVELY parent - in fact, I think it really pains her to be being strict with her child. I almost wondered if my friend was using this technique because someone had told her to, rather than because she wanted to.

It has worked for my three!

"you then sit them down and give them lots of negative attention until they give you a fake apology."

Goolash - you've just summed up what I hate about the approach!

Forcing a kid to give a fake apology or cuddle seems manipulative to me.

However, I absolutely agree with the need for calming down, rules and reflection. Thankfully loads of people on this thread have great ideas on using these techniques in positive ways.

The fake apology thing bugged me too. However, if your child has just thumped another child, then getting them to say sorry to the child even if they aren't particularly sorry will help a) mollify the other child and b) mollify the other parent. And that can be important too.

The 'fake apology' is simply about having them take responsibility for the situation, in the most undemanding way.

I know they're saying it because it is expected of them, and the apology holds no weight....but it's a signal that the child is ready to return to the proceedings and behave better. It's basic manners.

Why would you have a problem with that?

In my book, discipline is about flexibility and understanding the child at several levels.

Whatever you want to call them steps can work, but we must also recognise that sometimes the child is tired, or we are tired, or hungry, or needing attention.

Often, sitting to read a book with DS worked better than the naughty step, for example. It calmed us both and no need for drama.

It's also not just about using the naughty step, but warning about the naughty step, and giving the child the opportunity to behave appropriately.
Giving them the choice between a good and a bad option.
Etc.

And yes, getting flustered is not a good reaction when disciplining, as sounding weak.
A good assertive voice is very important.

I also try to give positive attention and reinforcement after any withdrawal punishment (naughty step/sending to room).

We talk about what happened (very quickly), have a hug and a reassurance that the appropriate behaviour will occur next time (NOT that the bad behaviour won't). Then move on very quickly to pleasant interaction.

TBH, I very rarely have to resort to punishments, which are mostly used for serious or repetitive bad behaviour.

Am I being unreasonable to think there are other alternatives? Like, uh, being really nice to your kid and explaining things to them? And kind of just ignoring bad behaviour and lavishly praising good behaviour? Am I totally bonkers???

Depends on the child. This is how DSis and I were raised by our parents - I don't think either of us were ever punished for anything, but we never really did anything that awful for them to punish.

DD is the same, generally very compliant and easy to reason with. I have never had to punish her yet, and she never gets told off in school either. She is just a very reasonable, self-disciplined kid.

I'd love to think that this was somehow the result of our superior parenting, but actually, I think it's just part of her natural temperament. DNephew is quite similar, so possibly there are genetic factors. If you have a child like this, it's very easy to get by without resorting to the naughty step or other forms of discipline, but if you have a child with a very different temperament, I'm guessing you would need a more robust approach.

Only time will tell, OP, what is needed for your dc. :)