to think that men and women ARE different?

[bejeezus]

I hold feminist views, erring on the side of radical feminist. I dont call myself either, as Im not well read enough, I dont think...

Its an on going theme...that people accuse Mumsnet of being a misandrist site. I dont believe it is; and I agree that the misandrist POV would be those saying 'its because he's a man' 'men do that' etc etc when OPs accuse their OHs of not doing fair share of cleaning/childcare/going to strip clubs etc etc. And the man-supporting POV would be'hes a grown up, of course he should do his fair share' etc etc

BUT...SOMETIMES....I think there ARE valid reasons, that the men in question may appear to be, but not be, useless;

For example, women have evolved to have better peripheral vision and ability to multi-task than men, because of them predominantly doing the childcare

For example 2; my dad and numerous other men I know, who are not sexist or useless in any way cant find things. My dad often calls my mum or one of us to help him-if something is 'not where it usually is'. I dont know the evolutionary (or other) basis for this, if there is one, but in this case it isnt because they believe it to be womens work at all

Evolutionarily speaking I would have thought that 'man the hunter' would have found himself inconveniently eaten by a lion if he had poor peripheral vision and an inability to remember where he last put his spear.

if you are relying on vision to escape lion attack, you've had it

ditto-if you've put your spear down at all

Both my DH and my DS cannot find things when they are right there. Thank God for Morrisons [other supermarkets are available] or us girls would starve.

YANBU. Totally agree.

Most evolutionary psychology is a bunch of just-so stories, they sound good but it's hard to say if they are true or not.

Men and women are different, but the majority of the reason why men and women are different is down to what happens to them between birth and becoming an adult.

Even if men and women were as intrinsically different in feature X as they are in height, then there would still be a lot of overlap. If you were to say that everyone who is male is like X and everyone who is female is like Y then you would be wrong for a very large proportion of the population.

If you were to say that everyone who is male is like X and everyone who is female is like Y then you would be wrong for a very large proportion of the population

I agree business. totally. especially when using it as an excuse for behaviours

But, you cant deny evolution (or, some do, but thats another thread)

I'm not trying to deny evolution, I'm just saying that you don't currently have a good argument for why "being good at finding things" would be a trait that had evolved to be present in human females and absent in human males.

Men are actually supposed to have better spatial awareness than women so technically men should be better at finding things that women! :o

It's all nonsense.

business I just used that as an example....Im sure there are more fundamental examples?

Whats nonsense purple?

you know thats just a theory and not an actual fact?

I agree with businesstrills

Neither my husband nor my daughter can find stuff, even when it's right in front of them. Drives me up the bloomin wall.

what is just a theory callmeal?

spatial awareness has nowt to do with finding things purple

The problem with saying that men and women are different is that the differences fall on such a wide spectrum that you really aren't saying anything meaningful. That's the problem with a lot of psychology - you can form human behaviour into interesting facts but when it comes down to it, in everyday life you're dealing with individuals who react in their own unique way to things. Knowing something generally about one gender doesn't really benefit society much at all.

Of course men and women are different. They have a different genetic make-up. That is bound to have a (variable) affect on behaviour. It's not whether or not they are different that is the question but where and to what extent. That is bound to be different for each individual according to their own genetic make-up and their particular environment. The gene expression may provide a tendency but that could be negated by the environment.

Isn't that the basic premise of the men are from mars tripe?

Physically we're different. Neurologically the differences are much much smaller than we've been given to believe. There's a whole load of interesting scientific writing about it. Not Baron-Cohen though, he makes me stabby.

I don't help DH find things he's 'lost'. He used to ask me constantly, it was bloody annoying. So I stopped, and he miraculously developed the ability to remember where he'd left stuff

Some of the people on this thread might like this

It's not whether or not they are different that is the question but where and to what extent.

I agree with downindorset

YANBU to say that men and women are different - but YABU to think that you can say for sure in what ways they are different, especially when you base this on "lots of the men I know...".

I have rubbish peripheral vision and zero spatial awareness. I never notice things and didn't recognise my neighbours for several years after we moved house. DH said hello to somebody when we were out and I asked who they were and he replied the neighbours
I can't multi-task and dread the thought of having to learn to drive a car. (which I've decided not to do- I can't judge speed or distance)
I can, however find things and DH can't. Usually because he has dumped them and I have tidied them away. he expects them to be in the last place he saw them.

I think a lot of it is nurture. When women say "Oh why can't my husband do X Y and Z?" Because most of the time you do it for him. He can't find things because YOU decide where they go. Example: I have never used our lawnmower. I'm sure if I had to use it I could, but probably with some difficulty, at least the first couple of times. Then if I didn't mow the lawn again for a little while I would probably struggle again. It's not because women have some intrinsic difficulty with lawnmowers.

Never read it scrambled had it firmly in the 'trope' category

That's tripe

Well if it's all down to the genes and nothingelse...does it mean that a man who feels like a woman will be able to find his glasses?
And what does it mean about a woman who can read maps?

IMO, it is mainly an education issue and what the parents/society have told them.

Also apart from the X and Y chromosome, I am wondering how much genetic difference there is between a man and a woman? Because for example we know tere is less difference genetically between white and black people than there is in the whole white or black population.

And if there has ever been some studies to see if 'not finding things' is a male characteristics ie they can't find X at home (when their Dp is there) but can do so when they are at work, with mates, living on their own....