to think that men and women ARE different?

[bejeezus]

I hold feminist views, erring on the side of radical feminist. I dont call myself either, as Im not well read enough, I dont think...

Its an on going theme...that people accuse Mumsnet of being a misandrist site. I dont believe it is; and I agree that the misandrist POV would be those saying 'its because he's a man' 'men do that' etc etc when OPs accuse their OHs of not doing fair share of cleaning/childcare/going to strip clubs etc etc. And the man-supporting POV would be'hes a grown up, of course he should do his fair share' etc etc

BUT...SOMETIMES....I think there ARE valid reasons, that the men in question may appear to be, but not be, useless;

For example, women have evolved to have better peripheral vision and ability to multi-task than men, because of them predominantly doing the childcare

For example 2; my dad and numerous other men I know, who are not sexist or useless in any way cant find things. My dad often calls my mum or one of us to help him-if something is 'not where it usually is'. I dont know the evolutionary (or other) basis for this, if there is one, but in this case it isnt because they believe it to be womens work at all

I was getting at the whole "Hunter Gatherer" instinct, Surely if this were true they would be better at hunting down their missing car keys etc. :o

I'm useless at finding things. Nothing to do with evolution IMO, It's just the people you know.

Have we got a science section on mumsnet?

No - we don't have an "anecdotes that I am going to apply to large sections of the population" section either :o

Genetically men and women are quite different and that fact does mean that men are more prone to certain illnesses, and more likely to have certain physical characteristics. To some degree you can say men and women are different in how they think, in their emotions and in their preferences, and it can make for fun or interesting reading, but when it comes down to it it doesn't actually help the world that much.

the whole "women have evolved this because of that". Fuck all proof for that theory.

You can't generalise like that. Its not supported by the evidence. Of course men and women have differences, thats obvious. But every person have differences to the next person, male or female. Evidence for large scale neurological difference between sexes is miniscule.

You can't say that "men have evolved this.." or "women have evolved that.." because scientifically that just doesn't make sense. Sex isn't a heritable trait. Men and women aren't separate species, they share a common evolution. You can only say "humans have evolved..." because you are going to pass the same genes onto your children whether they are boys or girls.

Funnily enough since my wife moved out of our house and I stayed at home with the teenage children I have miraculously been able to find everything I couldn't before, and multitask as well. It's like magic.

That said, genes are expressed differently in men and women, but that has nothing to do with evolution.

Bejeezus, a lot of the suppositions in your OP are very Westo-centric - they make the assumption that men are hunters and women are gatherers and have evolved to be so in all societies. This isn't so. Early in the history of anthropology, the extent of division of labor by sex may have been distorted by the fact that European anthropologists often tried to fit other societies into the conceptual boxes created for themselves. Just one example of a culture in which both men and women participate in both hunting and gathering is the Mbuti in Central Africa. Traditionally, in most Mbuti bands, hunting is a communal activity, in which men, women, and children work together to drive animals into nets and kill them. Men and women share duties to gather, too, collecting plant material and honey from the forest as individuals or bands. Throughout the long history of civilisation, many other groups have lived likewise. So it would make little sense from an evolutionary perspective for men and women to have absolute inbuilt distinct abilities and inabilities.

Even when it comes to physical differences between men and women, most people overemphasise sexual difference and the whole thing should really be seen as a sliding scale rather than a choice between two boxes. Not all men are stronger, taller, more muscular etc than all women. (An interesting point - when you watch an archaeology programme and they tell you that such-and-such unearthed skeleton is of a man or of a woman, they don't really know for certain. They're using educated guesses based on things like height, build, pelvis size and jaw characteristics etc. with the assumption that men and women have defining physical chracteristics. But because there can be short men and tall women, wide-hipped men and narrow-hipped women, men with thin bones and women with thick bones and so on, there's a considerable overlap where nothing can be assumed. They base a more accurate guess on looking at things like grave goods.)

'Men and women are different, but the majority of the reason why men and women are different is down to what happens to them between birth and becoming an adult'

Yes yes to this! Totally agree with other posters who said that people can develop all sorts of remarkable skills when someone else stops doing things for them

News flash - individuals are different.

i'll be honest with you. i dont care if evolution has created women with better peripheral vision and men who can't find the toilet roll in the cupboard infront of them that's full of toilet roll. i dont care. this is 2 thousand and effing 12 and there is no room in this day and age for throwing up evolutionary excuses for basic laziness and not being arsed to bloody well look. men have brains, they use their brains to form the words to ask the woman to find the toilet roll. why not skip the middle man, employ their brains on the task of actually looking for the toilet roll themselves. it really isn't rocket science (which i might add, many men are capable of )

Genetically men and women are quite different
I am absolutely not sure about that one. The one thing that is different is one little bit of chromosome missing in male.
Saying that one little bit is more impotrtant that all the other chromosomes and genes seems a bit extreme to me.

Dioes anyone know how much difference there is on a genetic pov between man and women to be able to compare it with the amount of difference existing between men and between women. I would guess the result would be similar to the ones between white and black people and within the white or black group.

applauds Booyhoo

yy, Divine. Cordelia Fine is good on the bad science of a lot of evolutionary psychology.

lol this is a bit like my DP, who is an engineer, telling me he can't understand how the new washing machine works and that I will have to do it.
Not a chance!

Of course men and women are different. They have a different genetic make-up

One single gene only, although only one X chromosome, which is why men are more likely to get certain genetic illnesses than women.
The differences are more hormonally driven and developmental even at brain level.

There are average differences, but obviously some overlap.

I have good spacial awareness.

Men and women are different, yes. But the science suggests that, actually

(a) those differences are very small. When we say "men are more [whatever] than women" we are generally talking about a situation where two-thirds of men are more [whatever] than the average woman, or an even less pronounced effect than that. That scale of difference may be interesting when looking at entire populations/large groups, but it's really of virtually no use when considering individuals or small groups.

and

(b) most of the differences are down to social conditioning combined with the amazing plasticity of the human brain, rather than to anything innate related to genetic differences between XX and XY humans.

Well the genetic differences between men and women are what cause the physical differences. When you consider that there are quite a few physical differences then it would be safe to assume the genetic difference isn't tiny.

genes are expressed differently in men and women, but that has nothing to do with evolution.

The variable expression of genes in different sexes could be heritable therefore it could be selected for or against by evolution.

Still doesn't mean that anyone's "men are like X, women are like Y" stories are true.

That said, genes are expressed differently in men and women, but that has nothing to do with evolution.

It has everything to do with evolution. :)

Well the genetic differences between men and women are what cause the physical differences. When you consider that there are quite a few physical differences then it would be safe to assume the genetic difference isn't tiny.

What I assume is that you know very little about genetics.

And there are very few physical differences. It's just that some parts grow more in one sex than in the other. That's essentially hormonally driven.

So, basically, testosterone = man, less testosterone = woman.

Well yes, in that we evolved into different sexes but the fact that genes are expressed differently is a fixed characteristic of humans.

I said the differences aren't tiny, which I think is fair. They're not massive either.