to be amused that the more exclusive a school is..

[seeker]

.. by faith, fees, ability, aptitude..whatever- the more diverse a community the school's parents say it is.

I think it's been established that Seeker is not a fan of the grammar school system. I assume that when she mentions schools which select by ability not income, that is what she meant. Probably not for me to excplicate, though.

The 'gaining privilege' thing, yes, to me that means our Eton/Westminster government, too.

Careful TOSN we might be agreeing about something!

I do wish this thread hadn't become about that one issue, although I see why it did.

The 'should the state pay' thread was much more interesting and agreeable!

Circle away, sharks. Have fun. Oh, and it is fascinating to see how many of the old guard are such experts on the politics and sociology of racism all of a sudden! Who'd a thought it, eh?

I went to an all girl's private day school near London, and at no point did anybody try to pretend that it was socially diverse. They would have got some very strange looks if they did. It was ethnically diverse, to a point (as many London private schools are), but not socially diverse.

My impression is that the more diverse a local population is, the more likely it is that the school system will not be socially diverse. I think you can even extend this to whole countries - so many Scandinavian countries are praised for their state school system but the population is much more homogenous than in the UK.

I suppose that there might be some not very bright parents who think that Eton is socially diverse, but on the other hand, Eton isn't the most academically exclusive school.

Happy - it may sound craven, but I was genuinely pleased the other day when you did take on board what I meant about communities etc, even though I know that a) you don't agree and b) your community is pretty different from mine.

I'm a bit sad that now it's reverted to accusations of me 'banging on', and confusing jokes about secondary moderns, tbh!

Re. the 'banging on' - well, it's because I have strong opinions and, especially where I see posts which I think are unfair, I'm going to articulate them I'm afraid. Just as you probably feel on threads where it's argued that Eton is the only really good public school, and you post your counter-argument.

I do hope that it will be alright to continue debating and giving my two penn'orth, because although it is sometimes frustrating/infuriating/difficult, I find it quite invigorating too. I think 'Seeker's dd is at grammar school' should have some sort of Godwin's Law attached to its use .

"TOSN" of course it alright for you to continue debating and giving my two penn'orth, and even *banging on" as much as you like. After all aren't all of us who post regularly banging on?
I do think we all need to lighten up a bit people seem to get so wound up; there seems to be a lot of ungrounded personal accusations which IMO are unacceptable and seem to arise when someone completely refuses to share your (by your I don't mean you personally) views and I don't like it and also people seem to take offence and talk about their feeling being hurt this seems a bit childish.

There's only one person who came close to making me 'feel hurt' (as opposed to irritated ) and I've not seen her around so much lately.

Gosh whose that? Do tell.

diabolo if i have understood your post right, you agree with me!

our local secondary gets 32% 5 grades a-c. :) and that was with the headmistress allegedly fiddling the grades (how i don't know)

Nah, can of other worms and all that.... just general accusations of stupidity and wilful misunderstanding, and a reply to something I'd tried quite hard to articulate politely with 'I have tried to understand what that might mean but can only conclude that it is BS', and stufff made me quite angry.

merrymouse don't the scandis have a three-tier system #(i know Finland does..)?

i often think 'oh its so much better abroad' tis BS. though they may well get better results..probably if you took every city larger than Oslo off the map the UK would do much better..

um - dunno - do you mean with a middle school and a high school?

I mean with 'technical school' 'high school' and 'grammar school' or similar..
actually having re-googled that, finland has two-levels at 16-19 (roughly equivalent to tech college and 6th form) and compulsorary comp before that, sweden is slightly less rigid (it allows free schools) but similar, Norway also similar to Finland (having merged its tertiary system in 1994) in having two-streams after 16...

so seeker should probably live in Finland :)

I googled that and found the same thing.

Interestingly, also, as far as I could tell using the power of wikipedia, Finland still have a split between poly's and uni's

Anyway, I would like to add that I am actually sold on the 'Scandinavian' education system, although I completely admit this may be because I am subconsciously thinking that if your children go to a Finnish/Danish/Swedish school you also get a free kitchen from Ikea, lots of lego and they reupholster your sofa in marimekko fabric. Probably you also get a government subsidised holiday house next to a fjord.

Ah, 'Scandi' living..

Heres the second family story about why my parents banged on about education constantly. My mother arrived in the uk as a 1960s immigrant, with a raft of professional qualifications to her name. Could she get a job at anywhere near the same level as she had been working in her home country, which she left to escape a devastating civil war that left her mentally and physically scarred? Could she heck. Reasons given were, your qualifications aren't good enough, you didnt go to a good enough Uni, even though they used the same exam boards and papers as the Uk, or her English wasn't good enough, even though she came from a country which had until recently English as its first language, and spoke only english at home and in school. So she took a job at a lower grade and stayed at a lower grade than her peers for the rest of her career in that profession.

She was determined that no one would ever say to her daughter that her qualifications weren't good enough, that no one would say that her daughters school wasn't good enough, or that her daughter didn't speak good enough English. She understood that there would be other reasons that I would probably be given for the discrimination, but she was adamant that educational standards would not be one of them.

I owe my parents a lot, and the best education that they could possibly have afforded for me is one of the most priceless gifts they could ever have given me.

Incidentally, they also didn't like state education because they were terrified of being accused of being immigrants who came here to sponge off the state. They always wanted to be able to say they came here and paid their own way. Being accused of being sponging immigrants is something I too am terrified of.

See how a different life experience can alter perspective dramatically, seeker?

However, I could be persuaded to live in Scandinavia for the free Lego. No qualms about sponging for free Lego!

TheBossofMe - your story is enlightening. My DP, who is Jewish, grew up with the very strong message that he should always work hard at school and his parents (more particularly his mother) bought him and his brother every possible advantage. DP's mother was in hiding during the war and very much lived in fear of having to abandon everything and start again in a new country, with only wits and skills to give them all a head start.

bonsoir the top students in my class were nearly all from an immigrant background at some fairly recent point in their past. There was a huge Jewish community in the school, many of whom had parents and grandparents like your DPs mother. All of them were given the same message as your DP - work hard and learn well, because your brain and it's knowledge may well prove to be the most valuable asset you have. Having to uproot and move to a different country with nothing to take with you, or having to live by your wits for any period of time is a scarring experience for all concerned.

We are all products of our background, no matter how hard we may try to escape it.

Yes, I have a friend from an immigrant background whose family fell apart when she was 16. She makes pretty extreme choices, even now aged 46, that other people cannot countenance - she'll sacrifice anything at all for financial security.

Interesting stories theboss thanks for posting.

Sadly I seem to have bored everyone else off the thread

You haven't. I'm reading and fascinated, but not posting.e

It is fascinating how our background can define us more than we think.

My parents also don't claim their state pension or winter fuel allowance ( does that still exist) for fear of the scrounging accusation. They are ridiculously proud, and not always in a good way. I adore them though. If I can be half the parent to my daughter, I will be a happy woman.

TheBoss your posts are interesting and illustrates that not everyone who sends their children to selective (fee paying or not) schools is doing so out of some desire to segregate their child or out of snobbery.

Its a shame that others cant countenence the idea of choice. And yes I know choice is for the well off but unless you want to live in East Germany in the 70's (and look how that turned out) thensociety will always have a degree of inequality.

For me the big question is why doesnt the state make comp schools better and why arent they better managed. Why are so many children bullied and bad behaviour accepted? We know strong management can turn around even so called 'sink' schools (hate that term) so why dont we expect more of the management and teachers.