to be amused that the more exclusive a school is..

[seeker]

.. by faith, fees, ability, aptitude..whatever- the more diverse a community the school's parents say it is.

An Etonian and a Medway Towns boy.... use the same fashions.....speak the same basic language

I'm not so sure about that.

"I am not saying that it is OK that boys from Medway Towns do not get a good education. You are saying that it is OK for economic diversity to be given priority over ethnic diversity. Go and speak to friends who are ethnic minorities and see what they think!"

I didn't actually say that. But don't let the truth get in the way of a good story! I do say, however, that the class divide in this country is equally damaging to all ethnic groups, and is a seriously undiscussed barrier to social cohesion and an equal society. And class is a significant driver of the disparity that exists in the education system.

I think also if you're not religious, you don't always understand how much of a binding factor this can be (and of course a divisive one).

If that religion permeates your day to day experience and most of your cultural references are linked to it in some way, then you will find commonality wiht others whatever their socio-economic background.

really, it's all down to the individual school isn't it?

the local comps i attended were absolutely not hotbeds of open-minded acceptance...amongst the kids.

but they are a small random sample of the nations schools.

But seeker you are saying that people shouldn't use private education to gain ethnic diversity!!!!

You are saying that people should use their local schools, even though many posters are telling you they are not ethnically diverse. And that we need to do so to promote social cohesion.

So you are saying that the one should trump the other.

I don't see how the class divide is equally damaging to all ethnic groups. None of the white working class people I know have ever discussed (in my presence) the random abuse they get in the street for being white working class. Wheras I have heard random abuse being discussed by quite a few Asian, middle Eastern and disabled people, because they have all suffered it.

I don't think you did say class divide is as damaging to ethnic groups anywhere on the thread before your recent post. You also specifically said that you think class similarity over-rules ethnic difference. That's what you said. Nobody is making that up.

And those of us from ethnic minorities are telling you that this is not their experience. But you refuse to let real experience stand in the way of your argument.

No I'm not. I'm saying that people should not say that their school is diverse just because there are different coloured faces in the classroom.

Babybarrister- I am genuinely puzzled that I have suddenly become racist. If you have time' could you point me at what I said to make you think I am?

My last post was directed to word factory.

If I didn't explicitly say that racism is alive and well in our society, then it was because I assumed that was a given.

Why does it bother you.

School is not some sort of "bingo" where you have to tick all skin colours to pass some MN test...

It is odd to try to score points for the "multi cultural" level of your school, as if that proves anything.

People aren't saying their school is diverse because of different coloured faces in the classroom! Didn't you just say that you don't reduce ethnic diversity to colour?

You are beginning to make a fool of yourself Seeker.

I am saying my school is diverse because of the different cultures and religions and backgrounds countries the children come from, not because they all happen to have different skin tones. And as diverse is described in my dictionary as distinctly dissimilar or unlike and many and different, I think I can accurately describe my child's SS GS as diverse.

It's no more disingenuous to claim a school is diverse because the pupils are all from difference socioeconomic backgrounds even though there is barely a non-white child in the school.

The thing about class is that you can hide it, you can change it over generations, you can rise and you can fall. You can never ever change your ethnicity, especially if it's one with a different skin colour. So no matter how rich I get, no matter how educated I become, some people will still spit at me in the street and call me a dirty Paki.

Think about what that's like, seeker, before you judge those who are trying to tackle it. A lot of ethnic minorities choose private education because it means their child won't be the only paki in the class. Look at schools like Habs and North London Girls, so incredibly ethnically diverse. Far more so that the local predominantly white comprehensive near Habs.

One form of diversity does not trump another.

"I don't see how the class divide is equally damaging to all ethnic groups. None of the white working class people I know have ever discussed (in my presence) the random abuse they get in the street for being white working class. Wheras I have heard random abuse being discussed by quite a few Asian, middle Eastern and disabled people, because they have all suffered it."

Agreed. But what I am talking about is the class system that means that all the leaders of our society come from a very narrowly defined class. Where working class children of all ethnicities are separated from middle class chaidren, and are generally given fewer opportunities, don't get to the top universities, and don't have a hope in he'll of getting to th topnuniversities. And the various forms of selective school do their part in reinforcing that class divide. And people who pretend they don't are part of the problem, not partnof the solution.

The leaders of our society do come from a narrowly defined class, but I think you shudo bear in mind that quite a few members of Parliament come from grammar schools so it figures that they could have come from poorer backgrounds than would be able to afford independant schools, and historically Britain is a white country. It is still predominantly a white country. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with that. It is bound to take a few generations before we have proportionate ethnic representation in parliament.

Chandon:It is odd to try to score points for the "multi cultural" level of your school, as if that proves anything.

I took that to be the whole point of the OP!

My bezzie mate's parents are from India (came following partition).

On paper they couldn't be more MC. Wealthy in their home nation. Both doctors. Huge house in Richmond.

How much do you think they had in common with their posh white neighbours?

I don't think you are racist either, seeker, or at least I've seen nothing to suggest that. I do think you are coming from a background of white privilege (in as much as being white in the UK means you don't suffer as much discrimination as a non-white of the same social class) and are a little naive as to the impact of racism on people. But racist, no, I don't see that.

I also think you need to understand the cultural background that drives some ethnic minorities to value fairly high pressure and academic schools. Will dig up some links at some point if you are interested. I read a fascinating book on it once, which rang so so many bells with me. Now I just have to try and remember its name....

Baby barrister- you will see that I included selection by ability as part of my definition of "exclusive."

I assumed that people would understand the use of the word "exclusive" in this context. I should have made myself clearer.

But you didnt include exclusive on the grounds of face, whether intentionally or not. A school with no or few ethnic minorities is just as exclusive in a different way.

the class divide in this country is equally damaging to all ethnic groups, and is a seriously undiscussed barrier to social cohesion and an equal society. And class is a significant driver of the disparity that exists in the education system

Agree with this.

people should not say that their school is diverse just because there are different coloured faces in the classroom

Disagree with this.

Social class makes a real difference to everyone in this country, and to their educational and career outcomes (sorry, bad English but I hope you know what I mean), and is actually disproportionately important for people from minority ethnic groups, in my direct personal experience.

But ethnic diversity is still diversity. And ethnic diversity is still a Very Good Thing.

Perhaps you should have been clearer as to your definition of diversity, Seeker