naughty dc denied snack at preschool

[stella1w]

Genuinely puzzled by this. Picked up dc1, 4, from preschool today and was asked to speak to the leader. Apparently my dc had been defiant and would not listen or do what she was told. So teachers told her she could have a drink but no food at snack time (which is always fruit).
She also had a bite mark on her, but no one could explain that.
Preschool runs from 9am to 12.15, so it seems a long time to me to make a child go without a snack.
Plus my dc, like most others, only gets worse if she is hungry. I'm also not sure that withholding of food should be used as a discipline measure.
What do others think?
Apart from this incident, I like the preschool, though recently dc1 hasn't seemed so keen.

totally totally unacceptable, I would find that a hard one to get over TBH, would prob be a deal breaker for me

Completely unwarranted. If they are having trouble with defiant children, it's their problem, not the childs. Also, as you say, using food as a tool for discipline sets up problems in later life (are you listening, Mother) so, as monkey said, it really is a deal breaker, I'd have her out of there.

That's awful. Completely awful. What did you say to them?

I'd have to go and speak to Someone In Charge if I were you.

Totally shocked. Complain - this is unacceptable. Report to ofsted if you get nowhere.

Or find somewhere else and tell them why.

Totally unacceptable to withhold food.

Was your DC able to tell you what happened wrt the bite?

Outrageous! Heads would roll if it were me. Completely and totally unacceptable care!

Actually, at 4 I think a child should be able to manage without a snack but it is never right to withold food. I think bread and butter should have been offered, rather than no snack. I would be far more concerned about the bite and the lack of explanation. I would be all guns blazing about that.

I think that it is totally wrong to use food to discipline (either as a reward or a punishment).

However, I don't agree with Dawndonna, trouble with defiant children is not the nursery's problem, it is the parents' problem and ultimately it will become society's problem. So I do think that you have to sit down with the nursery staff and find out what exactly the problem is and how you could work together to address it (reward chart maybe?).

Doesn't sound good. I can't imagine any good reason not to give a snack. If the pre-school isn't on top of things and children are getting out of control it would suggest to me to try a different one.

Withholding food as a punishment and not noticing a bite bad enough to leave a mark are both unacceptable.

I'd want a meeting with management to find out what their behaviour management policy is - they should be able to handle defiant 4 year olds in a more positive way! I bet Ofsted wouldn't be impressed.

I don't think you should withhold food as a punishment.

I think going 3hrs 15mins without food aged 4 is completely fine though!

Well, they said they thought it was a bite mark, but they weren't sure and it had disappeared by the time I arrived. They said dc couldn't explain it, but I asked her and she said child x bit her when they were in line, so I called preschool to convey this. They said it happened in the book corner.. another child went to tell them about the mark, though dc was happily reading.
It was the person in charge, not the keyworker, who told me about the food and bite thing.
Also, she is not usually defiant.. this is the first time they have mentioned it to me. She was unwell earlier this week, so my explanation would be she was overtired.
I should check again their behaviour management policy. It never occurred to me that not giving a snack would be part of it.. can't see how that would reinforce positive behaviour.

This also happens in dd's primary school and also in secondary.

Its disgusting and our headteachers take on it is that snack is a treat and not essential. My dd was denied her snack because she forgot her homework. As a result she was so hungry come lunchtime she bolted down her dinner and terrible heartburn for the rest of the day something that she suffers with anyway. I was fuming and I'm not even going to go there with ds school, long story!

Id kick up a fuss if I was you, you will find the education board agrees with you (they did in my case)

Sorry, dikker you are right to about parents etc. I meant that as a nursery they should perhaps be finding more creative ways to deal with things.

I'd be complaining- with holding food is not a good punishment, time out or similar would have been more appropriate.

Besides, I think childrens' behaviour gets worse when they are tired/bored- and hungry.

Defiant in what way? I can't see the point of witholding her snack unless it fitted the 'crime'. I could understand if she was refusing to wash her hands before eating or sit at the table then they would say 'ok, well no snack unless you do' but otherwise it seems a really odd punishment.

DS had a bite mark at nursery, which his teachers couldn't explain. I figured that if he didnt tell them/cry then they couldn't be expected to know. I asked why he didn't say anything and he said he wanted to go and play cars

Totally inappropriate. If she had been being poorly behaved at the table and had been given a choice to stay at table and behave or get down, then i would agree but for an unrelated incident. I'd complain.

YANBU - it sounds terribly Victorian

I don't it think was for not behaving at snack time and I am not sure exactly what she did. I was told she wasn't listening to the teachers and refusing to do what they said. Sometimes she gets oppositional with me over pointless things, so I understand their frustration.
We are going on holiday now, so when I get back, I will have a word with her key teacher. I was so surprised, I didn't tackle the food thing at the time.

refusal to do as they said is pretty common in 4 year olds (i work in childcare). they should be able to deal with it better than that! (disclaimer ....i can control other people's 4 year olds, my own horror angel is another matter)

More importantly, Ofsted say using food as a reward or punishment is not acceptable. Ask nursery what Ofsted think about it.

TiggyD - do you have a link to Ofsted and food??

btw, ofted rated this preschool outstanding.. ..

having a pretty miserable day cos dd just got into local outstanding infants, but ran into a Mum whose kid already goes there and she went on and on about how ofsted gets it wrong and the school is just the least worst choice in the area!

dc had been defiant and would not listen or do what she was told. So teachers told her she could have a drink but no food at snack time (which is always fruit).

normal four year olds are often defiant, ask to see the peer review which demonstrate withholding food from a small child will encourage the child to behave, most studies show that rewarding good behaviour is more beneficial than punishing bad, the teacher must be basing their methods on evidence base study, ask to see their policy on behaviour adjustment.

She also had a bite mark on her, but no one could explain that.

They have to explain it, they also have to explain why you were not informed when you arrived to collect her, they also have to explain why it wasn't attend to, was the skin broken? if it was, do any of the children in school have hepatitis ? and ask to see their policy on this. Oh and what did the child say happen?

Preschool runs from 9am to 12.15, so it seems a long time to me to make a child go without a snack.

yes it is, that why they have a snack, which they probably what they arranged with you when agreed to leave your child with them. Did they mention that they would remove the option of food if your child was non complaisant?

Plus my dc, like most others, only gets worse if she is hungry

hence the organised snack time.

. I'm also not sure that withholding of food should be used as a discipline measure.

No it can't , as they didn't pre arrange such sanctions, it's against guidelines and no one with an ounce of common sense or any training would write up a policy that would state that withholding food from a child is an option.

What do others think?

I think you are leaving your child with untrained lazy people who shouldn't be allowed anywhere near children, I think you should find somewhere that has trained people, look carefully at their policy on everything, and question everything in advance.

Apart from this incident, I like the preschool,

Genuinely interested as to why?

though recently dc1 hasn't seemed so keen.

given that this is the way they treated her today, it's probably the tip of the ice berg, if they get things so wrong on dealing with a little obstinacy from a four year old, they are not likely to be getting much else right,

your child has only one childhood, do not allow her to be the victim of incompetent adults.

Thank god she is 4 so will be leaving to go to school soon.

Are you in a position to take her out of preschool? I certainly would be. At DD1's their punishment is time out.