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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to have been shocked by US anti-abortion feature on Newsnight

253 replies

wimblehorse · 14/04/2012 17:37

This was a few days ago but haven't had chance to post sooner.

The feature was about how far to the right the republican presidential candidates have been pushing on the abortion debate and showed a group in Ohio who are lobbying for abortion law there to be (further) restricted so that once a fetal heartbeat has been detected through compulsory vaginal probe ultra-sound - which can be after 5-6 weeks - then a termination cannot be carried out.

A huge number of women would not even know they were pregnant at 5-6 weeks, and even those who found out straight away it doesn't give much time to be able to arrange a termination, especially as so many clinics/hospitals have been forced to close.

Already in that state, women seeking terminations are forced to have vaginal ultrasound probes and hear/see the heartbeat before having a termination.

The group who were lobbying claimed that detection of the heartbeat was a fundamental sign of life and therefore terminating a pregnancy after this had been detected was "wrong". However it's just a sign of current medical technology. There are many people alive today who have had periods of no detectable heartbeat and have been resuscitated - brain death is what is considered the fundamental sign of life and they had no medical link between detection of ultra-sound heartbeat to development of brain function - awareness/pain etc - in a fetus.

It's an arbitrary measure that is trying to make it almost impossible to seek a safe, legal termination and I really hope that it doesn't make further headway.

Rant over.

WIBU to have been shocked?

OP posts:
oopsi · 18/04/2012 11:09

The child would not be mine though would it? It wouldn't have any of my genes so I don't think I would feel an attachment to it (could be wrong there as I've never been in the position of giving birth to a non-related child!)

twofingerstoGideon · 18/04/2012 11:13

And oppsi would you be prepared to give birth over and over again - let's say every ten to twelve months - in order to rescue all those foetuses? How about a few multiple births to help things along a bit? Just how committed would you be to doing this?

oopsi · 18/04/2012 11:21

Well I think the point Bochead's scenario was supposed to put a person with pro-life beliefs in the position of a desperate woman seeking an abortion

oopsi · 18/04/2012 11:22

sorry pressed post too soon

If that woman was repeatedly getting pregnant, abortiong, getting pg, aborting, then i think that strengthens the pro-life argument!!!

splashingaround · 18/04/2012 11:30

Your compassion for the 'newborn child' vanishes quickly when you refer to a child not biologically your own - You would 'have it adopted'.

You are much more careful with your language when you talk about a foetus, rather like the pro life movement who is vociferous about the right to life of the unborn but does little to improve life for real existing children.

Blu · 18/04/2012 11:34

The forced ultrasound thing is like a nightmare catch 22.
You wouldn't know you were pg at that stage EXCEPT by tv ultrasound, so the confirmation of pg would at the same time outlaw abortion. This law effecetively outlaws termination.

At 5-6 weeks it isn't a heartbeat. There is no heart. It is an electrical impulse which will later initiate the heartbeat.

Oopsi, Have a view about that if you like, but don't expect to dictate other women's lives.

And if you agree to termination (of a human life, in your terms) for a woman who has been raped, then you are saying that a woman pg under any other circumstances (suicidal, say, desparate, took precautions that didn't work...) must be subjected to a judgement made by YOU about why her need for a termoonation is not valid. You are giving yourself the righgt to make a judgement about another woman's life. You are making pregnancy, in effect, a punishment for sex. Should a pg ever be borne by a woman who is desparate not to be pg? Who is vehemently not open to being a mother?

This is what these American states are doing. Horrific, in a country which purports to be the leader of the free world.

slug · 18/04/2012 11:35

It's hardly "pro life" though is it? Because just born children have needs. They can't survive on their own.

I can't honestly see the difference, morally, between someone who terminates a pregnancy and someone who brings a baby to term then abandons it. All you are doing is prolonging the agony. If you are prepared to abandon a child as soon as it is born are you prepared to accept that child may starve to death or be so neglected it ends up with severe difficulties? You only have to look at the Romanian experience to see that this is the logical extension of your position.

Morally I think your position is appalling and far far worse than someone who seeks to terminate a pregnancy before the foetus can feel any physical or mental pain.

slug · 18/04/2012 11:42

The more I consider your position oopsi the more sadistic I find it.

oopsi · 18/04/2012 12:37

Slug- tht's ridiculous!! It's like saying if there is a terrible car crash where both parents are killed , thetre is no point medics fighting to save the injured children unless they are prepared to adopt them.

slug · 18/04/2012 13:11

No ooopsi. Your position would be save the children then throw them out on the street to fend for themselves.

oopsi · 18/04/2012 13:17

No I think in either case i would expect social services would look after them.the analogy would

slug · 18/04/2012 13:21

Actually, sorry, it's a bad analogy.

I simply can't understand how you would be prepared to carry a child to term then abandon it to an unknown fate because it's not your genes. That shows no compassion for the life of the child at all. If you are so concerned for life then why are you unconcerned about it the minute if draws it's first breath?

I think that is truly a sadistic point of view. First punish the mother for getting pregnant, then punish the child for being born to a mother who didn't want to be pregnant in the first place. I see no concern for life there. All I see is a fetishistic worship of the foetus.

solidgoldbrass · 19/04/2012 01:12

This is good.

flyingspaghettimonster · 19/04/2012 03:04

I am in virginia. In dec 2007 I became pregnant after a condom burst and morning after pill failed. It was awful timing, and my marriage would not have survived if I had continued the pregnancy... So I made the decision to abort and try to save the life we had wanted for the existing children.

my first attempt at finding a clinic lead me to contact a clinic that said they offered free counselling and advice, pregnancy testing,, ultrasound etc. it turned out to be a pro-life funded centre and had me in tears, but it didn't change my mind.

The next place I tried was full, I finally found a clinic and was told I couldn't be treated yet as it was too early! I knew at 4 weeks as we had been nervous after the condom incident, so I took a test at the firat opportunity. apparently the clinic refused to give out the abortion pill until 6 weeks as there is no heartbeat till then so might not be a viable pregnancy.i would have thought most woman would prefer to take the pills as early as possible after a positive test, but this was not allowed. Instead I was given an appt. For two weeks later.

I had to go through my birthday and christmas knowing I was pregnant, knowing that this child would never celebrate a birthday, never open stockings with its siblings... I cried all the time, had morning sickness, such huge guilt... But my decision couldn't change.

On boxing day I finally went to the only clinic that would see me. I paid $400 for the experience. I waited in a room full of laughing,joking girls who were proud to be there 'my man is so fertile, he can't use a condom, he too big' were bandied about. A terrible eddie murphy film played.

I was made to undress completely and wear a tiny backless gown. Pee on a stick and walk to the counselling... Which consisted of a woman behind a desk telling me to sign there, there and there to swear that I was doing this voluntarily and that I would return within 10 days to ensure termination was complete... She explained that it was a legal obligation to return and that if for aome reason my abortion failed, they had the right to terminate it and it would not be allowed to continue.

After this I had to have a transvaginal ultrasound. HAD to. No ultrasound, no pills. I was made to believe this was law and unavoidable. I only found out recently that it wasn't and so I was shocked that I had been stripped and violated like that unneccessarily. I was sobbing as they did it, it was utterly humiliating and cruel. I was made to see my baby, hear the heartbeat, be told I w as 6 weeks 4 days. Even though logically I knew my baby had neither nervous system to feel pain nor a functioning brain so no sense of self, it was still heartbreaking. It was made all to clear in that cubicle that I was a child murderer, even whilst they pretended it was all clinical.

Meeting the dr was the only good bit; he truly vared and took time to understand my situation as he was unable to give me the pills until he was convinced i wanted them. Since I was crying and distraught it was very hard to convince rhem I was there of my own accord.
they printed a photo of my ultrasound and put it in a file. I asked for a copy and was refused. It was clear I was not allowed to grieve for this potential child, I cannot imagine them refusing the photo to someone that miscarried naturally.

So that was my experience. I found it traumatising and I would never, ever go through it again. it could have been so much less painful by allowing the poas to be proof enough and allowing the pills immediately. Those two weeks were unbearably cruel... I spent every bathtime stroking my tummy and apologising to the child I could never have. The american authorities do not want it to be less painful... They want to make it worse. It is really twisted and upsetting as they are alao trying to make birth control less available too. Incidentally, at my follow up appt. I asked to be fitted with the mirena coil so it could never happen again. It cost me $500. Six months later I was pregnant again, the mirena having failed. Luckily by then my marriage issues were worked out and life was good enough to accept that surprise baby, because no way could I have gone through another usa abortion.

joanofarchitrave · 19/04/2012 06:45

I didn't want to read that and not post, flying. That's a truly shocking experience that you have shared. Sad

StealthPolarBear · 19/04/2012 07:38

((flying)) that's horrendous.

solidgoldbrass · 19/04/2012 12:08

That is utterly awful, you poor girl.

LadyHarrietdeSpook · 19/04/2012 12:46

flying I'm so sorry for your experience. I'm a Yank living in the UK and grateful for every day I am here, I'm so embarrassed and ashamed and disgusted by your experience and that you could be treated like that. That there are people who BELIEVE they are morally in the right for allowing women to be subjected to such treatment. It makes me so angry.

BasilFoulEggs · 19/04/2012 16:12

flying that's terrible.
oopsi, this is what you are supporting.

beautifulwho · 19/04/2012 17:32

flying would it be ok to show your post to my DH? He's a pro-lifer and I think he struggles to empathise with women and what they have to go through. No probs if not Smile x

pointythings · 19/04/2012 18:28

flying that is horrible. I will march on Westminster before I allow that sort of thing to happen here.

oopsi · 19/04/2012 23:04

How am I supporting staff in an abortion clinic??

The flip side of Flying's horrible experience is that a woman who wasn't 100% sure that she did want an abortion, or perhaps was being pressurised into it, might change her mind and be spared ,what for her, could be a lifetime of heartache.

twofingerstoGideon · 19/04/2012 23:29

oopsi
After this I had to have a transvaginal ultrasound. HAD to. No ultrasound, no pills. I was made to believe this was law and unavoidable. I only found out recently that it wasn't and so I was shocked that I had been stripped and violated like that unneccessarily.

So this is justifiable because it might 'change someone's mind'?

So she couldn't be trusted to know her own mind, make her own decisions, come to her own conclusions, but had to be violated to make sure she knew what she was doing?

twofingerstoGideon · 19/04/2012 23:30

flying I'm really sorry you had to go through that. You must be an amazing, strong woman.

oopsi · 19/04/2012 23:31

perhaps the ultrasound was to check she wasn't further along than she thought ie too far abortion pills ?

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