to have been shocked by US anti-abortion feature on Newsnight

[wimblehorse]

This was a few days ago but haven't had chance to post sooner.

The feature was about how far to the right the republican presidential candidates have been pushing on the abortion debate and showed a group in Ohio who are lobbying for abortion law there to be (further) restricted so that once a fetal heartbeat has been detected through compulsory vaginal probe ultra-sound - which can be after 5-6 weeks - then a termination cannot be carried out.

A huge number of women would not even know they were pregnant at 5-6 weeks, and even those who found out straight away it doesn't give much time to be able to arrange a termination, especially as so many clinics/hospitals have been forced to close.

Already in that state, women seeking terminations are forced to have vaginal ultrasound probes and hear/see the heartbeat before having a termination.

The group who were lobbying claimed that detection of the heartbeat was a fundamental sign of life and therefore terminating a pregnancy after this had been detected was "wrong". However it's just a sign of current medical technology. There are many people alive today who have had periods of no detectable heartbeat and have been resuscitated - brain death is what is considered the fundamental sign of life and they had no medical link between detection of ultra-sound heartbeat to development of brain function - awareness/pain etc - in a fetus.

It's an arbitrary measure that is trying to make it almost impossible to seek a safe, legal termination and I really hope that it doesn't make further headway.

Rant over.

WIBU to have been shocked?

The tactics in the US for a long time have been to restict abortion through regulation rather than directly challenging Roe vs Wade. Sometimes this is done in the name of women's health. Eg insisting on doctors being employed at local hospitals rather than just an arrangement to take in emergencies, asking for both signatures to sign for a minor's abortion even if no father named on the pregnant teen's birth certificate.

These have been really successful and in some states, women have little access to abortion as they cannot travel to their nearest clinic for reasons of cost or childcare etc

The more worrying thing is that they are being tried out in the UK, so for example focusing debates on late abortion (regardless that these are a minority and usually late for a good reason), the provision of counselling and recently whether or not two doctors have signed.

Given that most people in the UK beleive abortion is avaialble on request (when legally it isn't as it is the doctor's decision not the women's) people don't see the way they are limiting women's access.

It drives me mad, I am a Christian but I think the most loving thing to do is to defend the rights of and care for the starving, the homeless and the oppressed before casting any judgement on anyone making a painful decision.

If we could transfer energy currently put into oppressing others in the name of religion into energy for helping people I believe we would be living a life closer to that which Jesus wanted for Christians.

Debeez - possibly the most balanced and sensible pro-life stance I've seen. Wish more people shared it!

I don't think it's a 'pro/anti choice' debate necessarily - I absolutely respect a women's right to choose not to have a termination, for themselves, for whatever reason. I wish more people could respect my right to choose a termination for myself if I want or need to.

I say this after 12 years of devastating infertility too - I now have a beautiful DS, but will never be able to have another. It never impacted on my pro-choice views.

Debeez - your stance is pro-choice surely, not pro-life. It may be that you would never have an abortion, but as long as you believe others have the right to choose that's pro-choice in my mind.

I would never have an abortion but I fully support the right of other women to make that choice so I'd describe myself as pro-choice.

Actually, Horribleday, 34% of abortions in uk in 2009 were carried out on women who had one or more abortions. Contraception, anyone?

Thank you horribleday. It's not something I'd often share, quite often pro-life gets a bad name. But the problem isn't with abortions. Women should be given better birth control and given choices suited to their lifestyle, the scary thing about America is their whole chastity instead of contraception stance in some states.

That thing about conception is a fallacy. Pregnancy is already counted starting from 2 weeks before conception, it always has been. I'll link you to another article once I'm back at my computer as that's where it's bookmarked.

Tyler80 I may be setting myself up for a flaming here but I'm not pro-choice, it's just not my place to tell women what's best for their bodies. I'm going to shut my fat mouth now.

debeez to me allowing women to make their own decisions is what pro choice means

what is the logic that says a woman having 1 abortion is okay, but if she has more than 1 that's not and she be forced to remain pregnant and then go through the life threatening process that is labour and then have her whole life changed by having a child? To punish her for not being responsible with birth control? really? what punishment would u line up for men who are irresponsible with birth control? I think it should be a simulation of labour; what do we think, maybe 8 hours or so of torture? and then afterwards, for good measure, a demotion and pay-drop at work. And a state sponsored alarm call maybe 4 or 5 times a night for 3or 4 months.

YANBU.

Deeply depressing, like going back decades. I was reading about Sarah Silverman on Twitter posting up photographs, it's on the Daily Fail, which i won't link to.

I saw the article on Sarah Silverman - not funny and in bad taste.

I think this week it was Georgia (not the first state to do this), who brought in legislation out-lawing all abortion, be it as a result of rape/incest, potential suicide of mother and even if the foetus has a disorder "incompatible with life". :(

Much as I wish we had 100% effective contraception, we don't. I can see how the 36% is formed of mostly women who've got caught twice, or had one termination then had to make a choice with a pregab y where a serious issue has been picked up on the 12 or 20 week scan, for example. I really believe that 3+ abortions are very rare.

That said, I'd support a women's RIGHT to have an abortion every
Month if that's what she chose. I'd also seek to educate her about other options re contraception, and try to explore why she would feel a preferable option to taking a pill every day or using a condom would be an abortion. But I think that's a really extreme case in point.

To steer the conversation away from pro choice pro life argument (mainly because it goes nowhere and I dont think was the intention of the OP) I think what is really shocking about this, whether you are pro abortion or not, is that it is seen as acceptable to take these steps back.

Similar rumblings are happening around the pill - basically you shouldnt get it on health insurance if your employer, who provides that insurance, doesnt want it to be. It seems to be just perfectly acceptable to expect people to only have sex when they are married and want children, completely disregarding people who have made an adult decision that this is not their view. There will be women just embarking on adulthood who are currently having perfectly healthy and consenual and probably fantastic sex who may well have that right taken away from them because of the state they live in?!(This is without even mentioning women who take the pill for other, more serious health reasons.)

Womens rights is a measure of a developed country (along with literacy and child mortality I think?). How can Americans be happy to be in affect reducing their 'developness'?

This whole issue angers me. I know its not my country but I feel really strongly this shouldnt be allowed to happen.

I never understood the logic of outlawing abortion even when there is a serious risk to the women's life. Where this happens, both the woman and child die. How is that better?

This map is interetsing

I saw this too. Was actually more horrified by the right wing back lash against Obama's attempts to get free contraception into his health care reform plans. There was a clip played on the same Newsnight programme from an American talk show host that went (pretty much vertabim):

"So there's a woman who is having so much sex that she can't afford her own contraception, and wants us, the taxpayers, to buy it for her? This woman is a slut!". You can hear the audience whooping and cheering in the background. I felt sick.

Crikey wellthen - so not only would the right to chose what to do about a pregnancy be removed, but the right to protect yourself from pregnant in the first place. Crazy.

Is it about a moral stance that women should not have sex unless it's for procreation? That women's pleasure should be forbidden because it's dangerous, out of control? Was that not a stance that led to many many women being forcibly admitted to psychiatric institutions and given clitorodectomies?

This is the article that clears up the confusion about counting conception 2 weeks prior

Yes Liege, as though they'd prefer to pay to raise the unwanted child and healthcare for the woman forced to bear it?!
Am really about Georgia and Arizona.
Williwaggler's link is good.

YANBU.

I learned about the Republican's stance this morning. I was like this . It's unimaginable to me that it's even a conversation. It's like talking about going back to the dark ages.

Wellthen I think you're right.
Wonder what control or human rights stripping is planned for men who have sex for reasons other than procreation?

Several female House and Senate reps have added riders to anti-women bills about viagra and other things that pertain to men. It's gone very far to kill a lot of the garbage the Republicans are trying to do.

blackoutthesun- I would agreewith abortion when the mother's life is at risk.That's pretty much the only scenario I can think of off the top of my head.I don't believe anyone deserves their life to be ended because they are a product of rape.

"forced to have vaginal ultrasound probes"

No further needed as far as I'm concerned. This, alone is completely shocking.