to have been shocked by US anti-abortion feature on Newsnight

[wimblehorse]

This was a few days ago but haven't had chance to post sooner.

The feature was about how far to the right the republican presidential candidates have been pushing on the abortion debate and showed a group in Ohio who are lobbying for abortion law there to be (further) restricted so that once a fetal heartbeat has been detected through compulsory vaginal probe ultra-sound - which can be after 5-6 weeks - then a termination cannot be carried out.

A huge number of women would not even know they were pregnant at 5-6 weeks, and even those who found out straight away it doesn't give much time to be able to arrange a termination, especially as so many clinics/hospitals have been forced to close.

Already in that state, women seeking terminations are forced to have vaginal ultrasound probes and hear/see the heartbeat before having a termination.

The group who were lobbying claimed that detection of the heartbeat was a fundamental sign of life and therefore terminating a pregnancy after this had been detected was "wrong". However it's just a sign of current medical technology. There are many people alive today who have had periods of no detectable heartbeat and have been resuscitated - brain death is what is considered the fundamental sign of life and they had no medical link between detection of ultra-sound heartbeat to development of brain function - awareness/pain etc - in a fetus.

It's an arbitrary measure that is trying to make it almost impossible to seek a safe, legal termination and I really hope that it doesn't make further headway.

Rant over.

WIBU to have been shocked?

Don't forget: anti-abortion activism (foetus worship) is not about 'life' at all, it's about hatred of women and ownership of their wombs. Antichoicers are also anti-contraception and anti-sex education, and in favour of all manner of restrictions on what pregnant women can and can't do (the screaming nonsense about drinking during pregnancy is driven by antichoicers, not concern for public health). What these shitbags want is reproduction entirely under male control, so men get to choose when babies are born and women are voiceless incubators.

DH and I can't have kids naturally. If we were looking to adopt, I'd hate to think that some poor woman had been forced to carry 'our' baby to term.

And what about the babies that are born less than perfect? Perhaps born with a disability, or the wrong racial type... how ethical to leave them in 'care'?

a person should have rights over their own body AS LONG AS IT DOESN'T HURT ANYBODY ELSE!

So by that logic, I am entitled to keep both my kidneys, as long as someone else doesn't need one?

Funnily enough this mantra only seems to apply to abortion....

It is fascinating how these people are constantly wringing their hands over these poor babies who never had a chance at life, yet once they're born fail to give a shit. I don't see how someone can take what is considered to be a first world medical system and turn it into one which a) is inaccessible to the most vulnerable in society, and b) sees half the population as inferior incubators.

Imagine being raped, being subjected to a physical exam by the police (however gentle), then being told that you could not have an abortion unless a doctor inserted something into your vagina against your will.

That is nothing to do with the rights of the foetus. It is going to cause physical and emotional trauma to a living woman.

Being pg has not changed my opinion on being pro-choice whatsoever.

Acekicker, that was exactly it. I wish I hadn't clicked on that link though because having read the rest of what he said (Ii coudln't bring myself to watch the video clip) I now feel even sicker.

I had severe pre-eclampsia with my first dc, spent a month in hospital, had a cs which gave me pain sporadically for 2 years. There is no way a woman should be forced into that through no choice of her own. No way. Unless maybe the man who accidently co created the pg has to stand against a wall and be kicked in the balls repeatedly for a month or so and then have some body part cut open and stitched back together again.

Occasionally I get astonished by the prevalence of backwards thinking misogyny in the US and then I remember that, despite being a "civilised society" and considering themselves to be the greatest country on earth, they still have the death penalty.

The radical feminist pro choice stance is as unscientific and callous as the anti choice stance.

I think the Uk has got abortion law right. ( More or less )abortion on demand until 24 weeks, until the fetus becomes viable.

Solid, I'm pro choice to 24 weeks, don't hate women ( I am one!) but judge women who drink/ take drugs in pregnancy if they are then making the choice to give birth to a baby rather than abort a fetus.

I've worked with children damaged by alcohol and drugs.

I'm so pleased I'm not a woman in America. I think and hope we are too sensible to let these anti choice nutters take hold in this country!

I am pro choice.

I am glad that i live in the uk and contraception is free and abortions are also free.

in other parts of the world it is not free, and if you are stuggling finacally contraception maybe too expensive.

if women wants an abortion for whatever reason i belive she should have the right to do so.

i think abortions laws descussion should be banned.

"i think abortions laws descussion should be banned."
yep lets only have freedom of speech on things you agree with...

I think american proposals are wrong but equally I dislike the assumption that anyone who is anti abortion is automatically a woman hater, etc etc.

Some people, like it or not, regard the fetus as a human life and therefore do not agree with abortion - disagree all you want but don't start telling people they're not entitled to express a view

It's funny tell people who think women should have control over their own bodies only if it doesn't hurt a foetus, don't think a foetus should have a right to life, only if it doesn't hurt a woman.

Hurting a foetus = bad
Hurting a woman = ok, really

If it were a question of hurting a man, we wouldn't even be discussing it. It would never have become a political issue. Because it would never occur to anybody that it is a reasonable proposition, that men should regularly have to surrender their basic human rights, for the sake of somebody else.

women and ships' captains

Let's not forget that we don't actually have abortion on demand legally in the UK.

It has to be agreed by two doctors that continuing with the pregnancy is of greater risk to the mother's physical and mental health than terminating it.

Our law does not say that a woman has a right to abortion just because she wants one.

So we are in the subjective hands of the medical profession here, and it is only our good fortune that it is being interpreted in a pro-choice way.

Either the foetus has no rights, or it has, and even in the "enlightened" UK, nobody is prepared to come out and legislate in favour of no rights.

It's funny tell people who think women should have control over their own bodies only if it doesn't hurt a foetus, don't think a foetus should have a right to life, only if it doesn't hurt a woman.

Exactly!

It's not as though we generally seem to take the stance that the right to life trumps the right to bodily integrity either. Not even if you're actually dead and, objectively speaking, have zero interest in your bodily integrity.

Not taking much needed organs from a dead body even though someone's actual, current life depends on them? Clearly the moral thing to do!

Not carrying a pregnancy to term, even though a foetus's chance to maybe eventually have a life of its own depends on it? Evil bitches!

OK this will be painful to some but I have had two abortions. Both the result of contraceptive fails, one was condom fail the other condom and pill fail. I am glad that I live in a country that allows me to have the choice it is my body.

The US anti abortion feature is only the tip of the iceberg I am sure.

You almost sound apologetic there, frownieface, why? As you rightly say: it's your choice!

I've had one abortion. I've also recently had a miscarriage during a much wanted pregnancy. It hasn't made me change my stance on the issue one bit. Neither do I suddenly wish I had had a baby as a self-funding undergraduate.

I'm very familiar with that urge to somehow make concessions to the feelings of those who might be opposed to it - but really there's no need. In fact they'll probably read it as "secretly she knows what a selfish evil witch she is".

I'm sure you know exactly what's best for you! Have a

Where do I sound apologetic?

frownieface when you say 'this will be painful to some'. We're just trying to tell you that you do not have to justify your choices.

What pointythings said.

My apologies if you took this the wrong way (this I really would be sorry for).

What I meant to say was that there is absolutely no need to justify or even explain why you or I or anyone else made our choices. Because we can and should be trusted to know what's best for us and, if applicable, our families.

The fact that so many of us seem to feel the need to somehow "cushion the blow" (something I've experienced myself) IMO just shows how successful the anti-abortion types have been at indoctrinating us all into thinking that they somehow have a legitimate interest at stake.

Exactly!

If you don't approve of abortion: don't have one
If you don't approve of same sex marriage: don't marry someone who is the same sex as you

I've never had an abortion. That doesn't make me morally superior to anyone who has. I used to point out to people who thought that abstinence was the best answer, blah blah, and that women were 'too careless' with contraception, that the reason I had not had an abortion was more likely to do with me not being fertile (because, unless you are TTC you have no idea how fertile you are).

Yeah the right wingers are terrifying.

Rather like oopsi, the senario whereby girls and women relinquish their babies to more appropriate parents has already been lived, it makes gruelling reading for those with empathy. Am ancient enough to have placed a baby for adoption and wouldn't ever suggest it as a solution to another woman.

There is something immensely wrong with anyone who would want to force any woman to carry a pregnancy at her own expense.

The differences in opinion stem from whether you view a foetus as a human life or not..I believe it is .So if in all your arguments you substitute ' newborn baby' for foetus (even if you believe they are not comparable) you can understamd my stance even if you do not agree with it.

I can understand your stance well enough. You're not actually interested in 'life' at all, you're just a foetus-worshipper, because foetuses can't answer back, make a mess, disobey, or need state funding.
Foetus worshippers have no interest in children or even in babies once they are born. If you cared about babies and children you would be agitating for better maternity care (biggest cause of death/disability is poor maternity care or lack of access to it); campaigning against poverty, against DV, against discrimination etc. If you are one of the (rare-as-rocking-horse shit) antichoicers who actually is involved in helping pregnant women have their babies safely and care for them properly then I take that back, but somehow I doubt you are.

sgb think your post is ridiculous tbh - - follow your attitude logically and how dare people be anti war unless they're spending their lives doing anti war activities rather than just sign an odd petition or whatever..

I really dislike the assumption that because you haold a belief that automatically means you also hold a lot of other beliefs - ie anti abortion means you're a woman hater , children hater to from your post etc etc etc

It strikes me as pretty childish way to conduct an argument

If you are an antichoice activist, you are motivated by hatred for women. Because you are concentrating on doing them harm rather than improving other people's lives.
If you don't like abortion, fine, don't have one but keep your fuckwittery off other women's bodies and lives.

How quickly the forced birthers forget the lessons of history.

I suggest those who think it's OK to force women to give birth against their will go and look up what happened in Roumania when that policy was implemented.