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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think that children committing terrible crimes is a relatively new phenomenon?

61 replies

EGGteacher · 07/04/2012 21:00

I was reading in the news about the 14 year old who killed his mother with a hammer and then basically said it was her fault for being a crap mother. Shock

Then, thinking about the (seemingly increasing) frequency of reported shootings by very young people and dreadful cases like Jamie Bolger.

Are there historical references of crimes like this being committed by children?

If it is a function of modern times, what is going wrong?

OP posts:
WorraLiberty · 07/04/2012 21:01

I can only think of Mary Bell off the top of my head but there must be loads more.

only4tonight · 07/04/2012 21:03

historically a 14 year old would not have been classed as a child so it would not have been so shocking.

Meglet · 07/04/2012 21:03

no.

They didn't have the same press or media 100-200yrs ago. Bet some nasty stuff happened in those days.

NearlyMrsCustardsHardHat · 07/04/2012 21:06

Its probably less frequent now than it was in yesteryear

EGGteacher · 07/04/2012 21:10

No, I know there wasn't the same media but events that shocked communities did pass into legend.

Maybe it is the case that 10/11yo+ were not considered children so their actions didn't cause so much horror.

OP posts:
LunaticFringe · 07/04/2012 21:10

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

NoOnesGoingToEatYourEyes · 07/04/2012 21:11

There were the two girls portrayed in the Kate Winslet film, who killed one of their mothers for trying to split the friendship up. One of them is a famous author now I believe but I cannot remember their names.

And yes, Mary Bell was another that sprang to mind.

EdithWeston · 07/04/2012 21:14

It's less well documented, and individual cases are less remembered over time, but it is most definitely not a modern phenomenon.

Lizzie Borden's crimes were real, as were those of Jesse Pomeroy in the 1870s (a 14 year old who multilated and murdered a 4 year old).

fatherchewylouis · 07/04/2012 21:15

Heavenly Creatures was the film I believe

southeastastra · 07/04/2012 21:16

that film was really shocking (the kate winslet one, was is beautiful creatures?)

Tee2072 · 07/04/2012 21:16

I was going to say Lizzie Borden but she was 32 when she killed her father and step-mother.

Surely children have been killing people for centuries. We just hear about it now.

NearlyMrsCustardsHardHat · 07/04/2012 21:18

Back in the day kids were hanged for stealing a loaf of bread so maybe that weedled a lot of the wronguns out...

ohdearwhatdoidonow · 07/04/2012 21:18

Eons ago when I was doing criminology it was a quite regular thing and seemed to happen every 10 yrs or so.

MickyDodger · 07/04/2012 21:19

YABU, and a bit daft. People are people, nothing fundamental really changes, twas ever this etc etc.

PersonalClown · 07/04/2012 21:21

I was going to mention Jesse Pomeroy too.
There was the teen girl who inspired 'I Don't like Mondays' by the Boomtown Rats who shot kids going to school out of her bedroom window. Mid 70's I think.

I will admit I know a bit too much about serial killers than should be normal.

EGGteacher · 07/04/2012 21:28

I don't think I am that daft.

I reckon there have been reports of children killing others (conuting under 20's really) gang crimes etc multiple times every year in recent times.

People have pulled out a few examples, maybe one per decade as suggested, from the last 100 years.

Am I being so unreasonable as to be called daft to think that the frequency is increasing? Maybe there was just a huge amount of unreported crime until recently.

OP posts:
DoomCatsofCognitiveDissonance · 07/04/2012 21:28

Sadly, it's absolutely not.

I study medieval culture, from around 1300 to 1500, and I can say with certainty you are wrong.

One of the most commonly reported crimes is infanticide - by girls between the ages of 10 and 18. Sad It is absolutely awful. Often these girls were either marriage or engaged. Often, even at age 10, their families had 'married' then to some man, often a man twice their age or more. These girls sometimes killed their babies because they were terrified of the idea of being mothers (at age 10 - who wouldn't be!), or their babies died because, at age 10, their hips were too narrow to allow the birth of a baby. Sad

There are records of girls as young as 8 being married, becoming pregnant, and labouring for days, only to give birth to a stillborn child ... and becoming pregnant again the next year, to go through the whole process again. There are children I have read about who went through this five, ten or more times, and whole eventually did terrible things to their babies or their bodies.

One also finds stores of children who had been told that baby boys were God's way of showing a mother her girl children were a mistake. Sometimes girl children were taught to take care of their baby brothers, and told that their entire worth depended on the wellbeing of the baby boy. Up until the 1970s, there are copious records of girls committing suicide when their baby brothers died of natural causes.

One finds stories, later, of women with what is called 'phossy jaw'. This is a deformation caused by the work these women did in match factories. The phosphorus made their jaw bones row and fall away, and eventually the exposure causes mental illness and death. Women killed their own babies when they saw the (then incurable) signs of the disease, which was excruciatingly painful). They were condemned as mad.

Sorry, I've taken a long time writing this and only covered a couple of examples. But, trust me, there are more. There are thousands. It is awful. There are situations men and women have been put in where they had to make absolutely inhumane choices. We need to have pity for children in this state, not to judge them.

EGGteacher · 07/04/2012 21:30
  • I know there shouldn't be an apostrophe in 'twenties' by the way.
OP posts:
Birdsgottafly · 07/04/2012 21:30

I grew up when it was comon to treat a football match, as a punch up event and very young lads were responsible for extreme violence.

Cruelity to animals, was ignored, hunting was common and so was crimes against certain people, so in a way urges could be met, without anyone taking any notice.

Children who were psychologically disturbed, enough to kill, or torture, have always exsisted, in the same numbers.

What has changed is the opportunity, the availability of weapons and the reporting.

The way that crime is classified and statisics gathered is always changing.

scurryfunge · 07/04/2012 21:35

Doom cats, that sounds like very interesting (and depressing) research. I think incidents are not reported or recorded differently historically, which is why we think it is a modern phenomenon.

EGGteacher · 07/04/2012 21:35

That is very interesting DoomCat, and tragic.

Those circumstances don't seem as cold blooded as some of the recent cases though? Maybe the children who commit seemingly cold-blooded crimes today are equally as damaged by circumstances we don't hear about.

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ManicPanic · 07/04/2012 21:35

I'd also point out that as terrible crimes go, children have been sexually abusing other children (often siblings, or younger, more vulnerable children) from the time of... well, who knows. Sad

southeastastra · 07/04/2012 21:36

doomcat that is horrific, but still weirdly interesting

asiatic · 07/04/2012 21:38

I researched the history of "special" schools such as the old "borstals" and their predessesors etc, a few years back, no, children have comitted terribly crimes throughout the centuries, and largly, it would seem, against their parents. It an excessive extent, in some places and at some times. In fact it occured to me that some parents were inventing these crimes purely to get their sons taken away and put somewhere where they would be educated and fed, so maybe the numbers were not really quite as high as the seem.

SardineQueen · 07/04/2012 21:38

YABU

Don't forget in years gone by males (and females) were counted as adults much younger. So male children would have been going off to fight the next village (thinking about your gang fighting comments) and indeed in some parts of the world boys as young as 8 I have seen are armed and killing. Girls similar age being taken as "wives".

Human beings do not change much.