to think that children committing terrible crimes is a relatively new phenomenon?

[EGGteacher]

I was reading in the news about the 14 year old who killed his mother with a hammer and then basically said it was her fault for being a crap mother.

Then, thinking about the (seemingly increasing) frequency of reported shootings by very young people and dreadful cases like Jamie Bolger.

Are there historical references of crimes like this being committed by children?

If it is a function of modern times, what is going wrong?

If you read Anne of Green Gables then there is talk of children poisoning wells so it can't have been an unknown then.

And yes of course children have always done horrendous things even without anyone prompting them, forcing them etc (gangs / child soldiers) and even without anything bad in their background.

Agree with birds that some people are just all wrong from day one and no-one knows why and that is never going to change.

Best we can do is try and prevent the cases where external influences result in children committing crimes eg abuse.

There was Graham Young the poisoner in 1971 and before that Harold Jones in 1921 both of who committed premeditated murders.

Graham Young - was the young poisoner's handbook about him? Really good film but really horrifying.

You're just buying into the whole "hell in handbasket, the countries gone to the dogs" nonsense. What basis do you have fior your supposition? None. Other than a vague feeling from reading tabloids.

scurry - absolutely! I agree.

Egg - that''s the thing though ...people then had different ideas about what was 'cold blooded'. Infanticide wasn't considered as awful as all that (which is why we have evidence about it). Cultural ideas change a lot.

My sense is that we read about terrible things that people do to one another. People can be incredibly cruel. But what is most common, is people who do awful things because they are pushed to the limit. So, you find women who do terrible things to their babies because they feel there is no other option. It is awful. But I honestly don't believe people have new ideas about what is - or is not - murder. I think the same awful sadnesses happen time after time.

I was reading the trial of a nine year old girl. She was tried because she gave birth to a baby. She claimed she did not know she was pregnant No-one believed her. She said she wore larger clothes to hide her stomach, but still she did not know. She had the baby, and she put it under a hedgerow. When shcame back to it, it was quiet. She did not know if it was dead.

At the time, that was considered a horrible crime - a mother who killed her baby. Nowadays, we would say this was an awful case of child abuse and we would pity that nine year old for the unspeakable experience she went through.

What I'm saying is .... there's no right answer, often. These experiences are horrible. Personally, if I hear of a child who commits a terrible crime, my first reaction is to feel appalled that that child was put in a position where he or she could do that.

I agree, what counts as crime changes over time, as does who is a child.

Anyone interested should have a look at the Old Bailey records. It is only one court so can't give any idea of numbers, but a quick search revealed cases of under 14's convicted of murder, 'carnally knowing' younger children and 'feloniously assault'.

It is a really interesting record IMO.

You could also research the case of the teenage poisoner, Graham Young. When you refer to young killers, I suspect you refer largely to over 13s. As other posters have pointed out, in previous centuries these would not have been classed as children. The number of murders in 2011 in England and wales was 619. Given that murders by under 16s attract a lot of publicity, how many can you remember by children last year?

Doom that is such a sad story

Sorry, did not read second page of posts so did not realise Graham Young had also been mentioned

Whenever there's an horrific murder like this, I wonder whether the victim was on MN. No doubt her son gave her a hard time before he killed her and it wouldn't be a great surprise to hear she'd been online to seek help.

Hmm, ok I will bow to the weight of opinion (and stated facts) that there is absolutely nothing new in it.

So, what should be done to rehablitate children who have tortured or murdered? Presumably they just used to throw away the key? The lad who killed his mother will be released when he is 30. What should they do for him in the next 15 years so he doesn't reoffend?

It depends why they did it
Some will be capable of rehabilitation
Some not

A child from a difficult background, inducted into a gang at a young age, surrounded by poverty and little opportunity, committing a murder is one thing ( a really awful thing) but there is room there for change

A person who is a genuine psychopath - different kettle of fish.

And it's not just children. Adults who commit awful crimes and are not likely to be rehabilitated need to be kept away for safety of the public too.

Good news is with this case of the boy it is so high profile he won't be out of sight of the law after he is released - if he is released after 15 years.

Look at the cesspit of urban life in the Victorian age to find child criminal gangs where violence ruled, far less cuddly than Fagin's lot - you either lived hard, or were a victim and went to an early death. There were parts of London, as today, down near the docks that were completely no go. Boys on prison boats were fair game to men and stronger boys; parents were known to sell their own children; if you were in a gang you had to prove yourself - and of course what is just one more dead child in a slum? Same in Bristol, Liverpool and other dockside cities.

It's reported today because it is so shocking. And police spend more time than ever recording and reporting crime. There has been an increase in knife crime, police data bears this out which is most allied with under 25s and that certainly needs addressing.

There was a recent survey to say the best decade to be a child was the 70s. But many say there was never a golden era of childhood.

1831 - 14 year old, last child to be hanged in Britain, cut the throat of a 13 year old
1861 - Stockport - 2 eight year olds beat a 2 year old to death
1861 - Durham - 12 year old shot and killed a woman after an argument
1920 - London - 7 year old drowned another child in the canal
1921 - Hertfordshire - 13 year old beat neighbour to death with a hammer while trying to rob her
1947 - Wales - 9 year old boy drowns 4 year old by tying him up and throwing him in the river
1961 - London - 12 year old stabbed his mum to death in an argument over a bacon butty
1973 - Portsmouth - 12 year old stabbed his mother to death for nagging about homework
1973 - Liverpool - 11 year old drowned a 2 year old in a puddle
1988 - Borehamwood - 12 year old abducts 2 year old from park and suffocates her.

Sadly, it's always been going on. :(

And Leopold & Loeb - teenagers trying to commit the perfect crime. And failing.

That's a sad list Kladdkaka

Yes it is. I covered the issue of children committing serious crimes as part of one of my law modules. I found it really upsetting. Particularly how we as a society deal with them. :(

Bloody hell!!!!

I won't add to that list of Kladdkaka's, but I will say that the country has always been going to the dogs:

"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they allow disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children now are tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.?

That is a quotation attributed to Socrates by Plato.

There was once a theory that if you suffered enough, you could 'atone' for your crime. People actually thought that children who killer or hurt or sexually abused other children could make up for it by undergoing physical punishment.

Anne Perry is the detective novelist who killed her friend's mother - one of the two girls featured in Heavenly Creatures.

Woe Edam, it;s amazing what you learn on MN, didn;t know that about Anne Perry, no wonder she writes so well about the seedy underbelly

An article that may interest some

The Norway town that forgave and forgot its child killers

www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/2010/mar/20/norway-town-forgave-child-killers