If you can't afford children you shouldn't have them.

[MrsArchieTheInventor]

"If you can't afford children you shouldn't have them" [and] "child benefit and tax credits should be abolished" with the mantra that if she choses to be childless she should not be forced to pay for the 'breeding' choices of others.

A Facebook friend of mine. I didn't retaliate.

I absolutely agree Shirley, we do need to invest in manufacturing and in giving smaller manufacturing businesses opportunities to borrow at decent rates with proper banking support and assistance.

Tax evasion is difficult to police because there are some big old brains out there employed purely to find loop holes and position clients in the best way to minimise exposure. Plus how far do we go between pursuing tax and making the UK unattractive to overseas businesses. I am not saying we shouldn't look in to it but I do think that there are difficult questions here.

I have to post and run as am potty training my youngest and this thread has meant I have missed a couple of little puddles already and we are running out of pants! Some interesting food for thought though.

whatmeworry, you were not rounded on by me.

If you want to solve the UK's debt problem then start with tax avoiders and evaders.
If you want to solve the population crises then you need to start globally and look at the whole picture instead of merely spouting out about how poor people shouldn't have kids because they might have to claim some money to look after them. That's a moot point, you could argue that tax avoiders shouldn't have kids because they are more likely to breed yet more tax avoiders and little Wall Street shits.

Over-population is a global issue that is not limited to the UK. Anyone who even mentions China's one-child policy should be booted off for being an ignorant twat. So let's look instead at offering better medical services to third world countries including contraception. Better education regarding pregnancy and how about educating our children on how to have a little consideration for others? To respect peoples choices, to respect the environment and to realise the impact that a growing population has on this planet.

Education is always going to be key here. That and respect.

But Rhubarb that gives us no one to blame and vent our ire at. It's far easy to look down our noses at those less fortunate a tad harder to admit where the real problem lies.

Rhubarb, the two situations you give are equal in being morally wrong, and either are worthy of being ranted about. The figures involved arent the point, the principle is the same.

Actually, the UK benefits bill in total is several times larger than the estimated tax avoidance take. Government Spending Chart

It is absolutely rational for any cash strapped state to go after both.

The problem in the UK seems to be that each major party wants to attack the one and protect the other, they just disagree on which one to attack and protect.

Let's imagine that all of those 463,000 vacancies are filled today.

That leaves 2.2 million still unemployed and presumably taking benefits. What are they to do?

Tax evasion does need to be looked at but not just large businesses but everyone self employed too. How many earn very little (or expense everything to keep official profits to a min) and then claim WTC. So as well as avoiding tax many actually then claim extra from the state.

Big businesses based in the UK provide employment, making them move abroad wont be beneficial for anybody.

It doesnt matter than benefits are lower than tax evasion, its the same old argument everytime. Just because corporations find loopholes doesnt make it right for people to have children and then not provide for them. Short term help is only right, but how many are on them for six months plus or even until the child is 16? Plenty of threads on here moaning that UC will mean people have to work 24 hours with school aged children like its something really bad - i mean imagine having to work to support your family. How very dare the state expect that

Shirley, I don't think that particular post sounded like envy,I just thought it sounded like someone stating a fact. To me, calling that envious, sounds quite childish, like two teenage girls who just don't like echo other and each of their friends trotting out the standard 'she's just jealous of you' line.

Thats just how I read it, I realise it could have come with a completely different intention.

And of course I don't believe you are on benefits, I don't know you!

Where are all the jobs coming from HMOO?

There isn't enough for all the unemployed people.

I think the benefits system is over generous and a beneficial lifestyle choice to some people. On the other hand, what else is there for some people? It is fine to talk about raising people's aspirations, but in some areas there is literally nothing to aspire to!

However, i do I find it frustrating that people when are already on benefits, complaining that they need bigger house given to them as they are already overcrowded with four/five/six or more children, proudly announce that they are expecting another baby! Yes, this is their choice but it is irresponsible towards the existing children.

And yes, accidents happen but more than two 'accidents' would indicate you need to review your contraception choices.

I also delete people who write anything like this, plus anything racist, homophobic or otherwise offensive.

Outraged, so answer me this.
Why then are people so incensed about benefit cheat when we can clearly see by those figures that benefit cheats are a drop in the ocean?
Why do people have such strong views on those receiving benefit and why is it implied that people receiving benefit don't actually need it? That they could just stop having babies and go out and get a job?

Why aren't our resources focused instead on stopping tax avoiders?
Why aren't we angry that the Tory goverment have made it easier for companies to be based in the UK but to have offshore accounts?

"Banks ? Ah yes, the banks. Now this really is genius, you wouldn?t think that Osbourne chap had it in him would you? You release a statement to tell the general public, or plebs, that bank tax is being raised so those naughty bankers will not get away with stealing all our hard earned money and then spending it on lavish holidays, cars and champagne lunches with the Tory party. That should satisfy many. But what you have secretly done is to adjust the tax acts of 1988 and 2009 making it easier for large, rich businesses to base their doings offshore whilst evading UK tax. So if they shift their money to the UK from an offshore account, they don?t pay any UK tax, yet they can still claim whatever tax they do pay back from the UK to fund their foreign branches. This stealth adjustment hushed in by Osbourne basically means that banks and large businesses will soon not be paying any UK tax at all and will base all their businesses offshore to keep it that way ? cutting jobs as they go. This option isn?t open to small businesses by the way, just members of the millionaires club. But we can?t just thank George Osbourne for this change, we also have to thank the members of the committee set up by the government to develop tax policy; Tesco, BP, British American Tobacco, Santander, Barclays, Citigroup, HSBC, Vodafone, Standard Chartered and Schroders. ?Holy fat cats Batman, that?s genius!? " From here

How can an ordinary person like me predict the second slump and the government can't?

Exactly why is everyone frothing over benefit claimants?

whatmeworry, you are comparing the benefits bill, that is benefits that is paid to people who need it, to people who deliberately avoid paying their taxes.

Do you think that people on benefits are ALL cheats?

Wow! The benefits system is over generous eh?

I am a new claimant and er......it's considerably less than I earned in work.

I am going to struggle AND I get the addition of DLA so better off than some.

Over-population is a global issue that is not limited to the UK. Anyone who even mentions China's one-child policy should be booted off for being an ignorant twat.

Your not liking something does not make it invalid, nor does it make the person who made the point an "ignorant twat".

The frothing and faux offendedness approach to argument is IMO what really defines ignorant twattishness.

Benefit claimants, single mums , council house tenants all easy targets

Congrats Davey boy and the Media , A job well done.

And all the sheep fall for it.

WMW You think dumping babies on rubbish tipes is a valid solution really?

fuck me.

Cod
Sorry, I agree - let me rephrase that.

The benefits system is over generous to large families.

faux offensive and frothing at Chinas policy? Really?

I would really like someone to respond to me about the fact that there are literally not enough jobs to go around. That even if we filled all the vacancies there would still be 2 million unemployed.

"faux offendedness approach"

There's nothin "faux" about my outrage, sweetheart.

Lets not let facts get in the way Shirley

Rhubarb, if i deconstruct your argument correctly, it is essentially that:

• everyone has a right to be funded by other people, always, for any activity they wish to partake in, irrespective of cost

• that governments should never seek to limit this,

• that all teh money should be found - indeed could be found - by going after tax avoiders,

• and that anyone who disagrees with this premise, in part or sum, is "an ignorant twat"

Oh just post back that people with cats should pay £10 more council tax a month per cat to pay for clearing up of cat shit in public spaces. And a membership of the RSPB should be compulsory for every cat owner.

whatmeworry, I worked for two years closely with The Good Rock Foundation. I like to think I know what I am talking about.

Remember The Dying Rooms? That has never fully gone away. The founder of Good Rock now lives in China with her family and works full-time with the authorities and with orphanages to improve care for children. She has set up an adoption program that lets older people whose child has flown the nest, to adopt or foster abandoned children. She arranges for them to get some small grant from the government to do so.

She works tirelessly and yet the policy continues and the people of China are used to seeing dead babies dumped in communal tips or being thrown into the river. The abortion policy does not have a limit. If you kill a baby as it is being born then it is still classed as a legal abortion. Forced abortions still happen.

So don't talk to me about being faux-offended. Why not educate yourself instead?