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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think the tories are making education elitist?

207 replies

ThatVikRinA22 · 03/04/2012 18:08

just watching the news, they are making the A levels harder, saying they are too easy

my boy did maths and physics and trust me - they were not too bloody easy!

my dd is doing GCSEs now, (at 14!! too bloody young imo!) and was doing one science syllabus, the government changed it recently and now, where she would have been awarded a C, she ended up with a D. The science teacher had a rant about the tories at parents evening....

so, now A levels are going to get harder, getting into uni is going to be harder plus more expensive, does this spell and end for opportunities for all to go to uni?

is it going to be the reserve of the very bright and the very rich?

OP posts:
LeQueen · 03/04/2012 21:33

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ThePathanKhansWitch · 03/04/2012 21:34

Agreed Usual but how do you get people to see both Uni and Vocational courses as having the same parity of esteem? I have no idea.

southeastastra · 03/04/2012 21:34

another bonkers tory idea, hey lets make exams harder so the morons can't access futher education, right on

LeQueen · 03/04/2012 21:34

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noblegiraffe · 03/04/2012 21:36

How is it fair to say to a student who has achieved the same standard as someone who got an A last year 'Sorry, too many people have been awarded As this year already, you'll have to have a B to make the numbers right'?

EdlessAllenPoe · 03/04/2012 21:40

"another bonkers tory idea, hey lets make exams harder so the morons can't access futher education, right on"

or, lets make it so hard for UK students to 'catch-up' to degree level, that either our degrees become an inadequate prep for engineering and science jobs (particularly, or 'Mcdegrees in Arts' of no real value over A level as it was) or more kids drop out unable to cope in their first year.

there's no denying exams are getting easier (even if workload actually stays the same)

ThisIsANickname · 03/04/2012 21:41

Perhaps, then, there should be some focus on helping secondary school age children learn what life is like in the real world. Maybe someone should be telling them that you spend a huge part of your life at work, so it's important to choose a job that entertains you (if nothing else). That experience is as important (if not more important) than higher education for a lot of the jobs out there and that a lot of jobs have entry levels that don't require a degree. That there are a lot of really boring jobs out there so it's a really good idea to think about what it is you actually like to do and start figuring out how to go about doing it rather than going to university first and just assuming a good job will come along later.

Whatmeworry · 03/04/2012 21:43

another bonkers tory idea, hey lets make exams harder so the morons can't access futher education, right on

The problem is that you do need a minium level of ability (in the sciences, anyway - where it is very clear whether you know what you are doing or not) so gerrymandering the exams to be inclusive is not helpful.

EdlessAllenPoe · 03/04/2012 21:43

How is it fair to say to a student who has achieved the same standard as someone who got an A last year 'Sorry, too many people have been awarded As this year already, you'll have to have a B to make the numbers right'

this happens from year to year one way or another.

my qualifications are devalued by the relative ease of attaining the 'same level' now, the forthcoming ones get ones that lack value by the sheer volume of people that attain them.

southeastastra · 03/04/2012 21:45

it all depends on which subject is being studied really

usualsuspect · 03/04/2012 21:47

The thing is there are not actually many jobs to chose from atm is there?

usualsuspect · 03/04/2012 21:48

choose*

southeastastra · 03/04/2012 21:49

they hide jobs away on their elite websites

EdlessAllenPoe · 03/04/2012 21:49

in my subject - philosophy - not one with an obvious set of job prospects! - you still need to have the brain to understand the concepts. you need to put in the work at reading too.

the 'winnie the pooh' version being accepted at A level isn't going to help you to comprehend raw Kant, Nietzsche or Kierkegaard in the text.still less is only answering in single-stage questions isn't going to help you compose essays under time pressure in exams.

the less you learn at A level, the more you have to learn at degree.

Personally I'd rather have been down the pub than catching up on stuff my Sixth form could have taught me :)

babybythesea · 03/04/2012 21:50

I listened to someone on the radio (a uni lecturer) discussing how modular systems failed students at A'Level because they promoted the 'learn it fast, forget it fast' idea.
Which amused me greatly because I have a good degree in science from a red-brick university, where we studied for the entire three years in modules and needed to retain very little info from year to year....

Interestingly, my Dad claims to be one of his English A'Level teacher's greatest successes - he did no work for two years, turned up at his exam and wrote a good enough essay (having learnt great chunks of text) and passed well. That was 40 odd years ago. So I don't think it has changed all that much, really!

I think we really need to figure out what we want A'Levels for. If they are simply a means to access university then by all means let uni lecturers write them. But if we want to do something more with them (show a level of academic ability beyond GCSE, for example, which will enable students who don't wish to enter uni to still have a way of demonstrating their capabilities) then perhaps we need to think a little more broadly and creatively.

Do we wish to teach for exams (fact based, chuck the answer out without thinking too hard because you've memorised it) or do we want to teach thinking for yourself, formulating arguments etc etc? (I'm not saying the current system does either, just posing the question really - I think people who bang on about declining standards often mistake learning facts by rote for education).

School league tables undoubtedly have to take some of the blame. Parents choose schools based (at least partly) on how many kids have gone to uni, and how many kids have passed well at A'Level - so schools will always push (I have at least 2 friends who went to uni and shouldn't have done - it wasn't the right thing for them, but because they were academically capable no-one stopped to ask them if it was the right choice, they just asked what subjects at what unis).

High pass rates? Well, I also know one person who was told by her school that she couldn't do the A'Levels she wanted in case she pulled down their averages - she was offered one (and only one) that she didn't want to do because they could guarantee she'd pass it. (She didn't want to go to uni, and hasn't been. She just wanted to do A'Levels and could have done them, just not to an 'A' standard). She moved to a college which didn't have such a close eye on their league table place.

Tinkering with A'Levels for me is just fiddling a bit round the edges. Someone needs to be prepared to open a whole can of worms and ask some difficult questions starting from the bottom up. What do we want for our kids? Not just the bright ones, not just the ones who struggle, but all of them?
How do we make sure that we don't artificially prop up those who can't really manage, while still enabling them to make choices that work for them? How do we encourage the top end without damning the bottom end and casting them adrift? How do we ensure that those who don't shine to start with can still develop to their full potential, if that potential is hidden for quite a long time? How do we make sure that kids have every opportunity to succeed, while at the same time being realistic about the fact that not every child has the chance to be in the top 1%?
I don't have answers. But I think the questions need to be asked and before we piddle around with A'Levels we need a much clearer idea of what we want them for, and who they will serve (children - which ones? Unis? Schools?).

EdlessAllenPoe · 03/04/2012 21:51

7
they hide jobs away on their elite websites

if someone doesn't have the naus to detail-search for jobs (and i did back in 2001-3) using google, should they really get that graduate job?

and, actually most graduate programmes invest money in advertising to pull in the best graduates possible. The civil service was particularly lavish IIRC.

mumblesmum · 03/04/2012 21:52

'The problem is that you do need a minium level of ability (in the sciences, anyway - where it is very clear whether you know what you are doing or not) so gerrymandering the exams to be inclusive is not helpful.'

Whatme - 40 years ago, I can honestly say that I passed 3 sciences at A level with grades BCC, without knowing a awful lot or reading around the subject. In fact, I'd done 'modern maths' for O level which involved colouring shapes in, and 'learnt' the calculus explanation of formulae in physics without having a clue what calculus was. (I still, to this day, don't know what calculus is or does.) I hadn't done O level chemistry and spent A level doing the Nuffield syllabus which involved pupils engaging with substances and flames in the lab while the teacher chain-smoked in the prep room, surrounded by volatile and inflammable chemicals.

My 'minimum ability' was to remember things for 5 days.

SeaHouses · 03/04/2012 21:53

I agree that the exams need to change so that A level courses are an appropriate preparation for undergraduate study.

But the changes are being brought in too quickly. The new GCSE standards come in for September 2012 and the new A levels are due in September 2014. That means DS and the rest of the year nine pupils are guinea pigs for both the GCSE changes and the A level changes. This seems unfair on them, as there are bound to be some issues with the changes that will have to be ironed out. The Government should have staggered the changes and left A levels alone until the GCSE changes had been in place for a little while.

As for vocational qualifications, I am a bit sick of employers saying that graduates or school leavers can't do XYZ. That is fair enough if young people lack numeracy or literacy skills, but a lot of XYZ should be taught in the workplace by the employer. My brother did vocational qualifications at 17 and 18. He did them through work where he was taken on as an apprentice. Those kind of jobs seem to have vanished.

I also think that it is partly the fault of employers that graduates end up in call centres and minor office jobs. A lot of those jobs could be done by school leavers with decent GCSE grades, but employers want to take on 21 year olds not 16 year olds, so young people have to find ways of filling in five years on a CV to get a job that would have been given to a 16 year old when I was a teenager.

ThePathanKhansWitch · 03/04/2012 21:53

No there isn't usual so perhaps it's all academic (boom boom) at the moment.

My daughters 4 and she wants to be an Ice-cream Van Woman, so at least she has clear direction and drive. And lets face it people always want Ice-Cream.
Smile.

LittleFrieda · 03/04/2012 21:54

A levels are too easy. Far too many students attain the top grade. It would be a much better world if a B or a C at A level weren't considered a total failure. The only way we'e going to be able to measure the difference between the able and the very able, is by raising the standards of A levels.

OP what grades did your son get in maths and physics?

Voidka · 03/04/2012 21:54

Only the top 10% of students to get to go into university.

Where will all the Dr's/Teachers/Nurses/Midwives come from?

ThePathanKhansWitch · 03/04/2012 21:56

Brilliant, brilliant post Babybythesea. Bravo.

southeastastra · 03/04/2012 21:58

teachers of science need to be more tested at a level standard

my ds's physics teachers, although very 'out there' don't really seem that interested in actually teaching the subject

LeQueen · 03/04/2012 21:58

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EdlessAllenPoe · 03/04/2012 21:59

"before we piddle around with A'Levels"

they have already been piddled around with. that's why they've got less content, and higher grades awarded to higher %ages.

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