to wonder where the belief that counselling is helpful at best/harmlessly ineffective at worst comes from?

[MightyNice]

not just on MN, you see/hear it everywhere - and some people are genuinely shocked by the idea that talking therapies can be damaging, even though that Emory study found about 10% of patients get worse after starting therapy and even though it is now quite widely accepted that debriefing after traumatic events actually causes PTSD

I had counselling and it was great, very sorry to hear about the bad experiences.

But I was definately in the right place for it and the PT and I just suited each other really well, she was really professional but was very emphatic about certain things that had happened to me being wrong, in a way that felt like she was saying she personally understood but without her bringing her issues to the table. If that makes any sense.

There were lots of small things I really liked about her. Apparently I can cope with feelings in 45 minute bursts, and she always knew when I had had enough and cut the session short early. After DS was born I found some of my old anxieties nibbling away and I think back to those sessions and feel so confident. She was just brilliant.

I saw her via my GP and she was fully qualified/registered as above, so maybe that is a factor.

Cory, one of my friends growing up was going through similar things to your DD from what you have said. I remember her finding the 'right' therapist for her and how much difference it made - I hope it's all going well for you.

quirrelquarrel, family therapy can be about very specific things

in our case it is to help us to discuss almost as equals how we can all of us handle the stress arising from dd's medical condition and mental health problems

doing it in front of an outsider means that this is a space where dh and I don't have to be the adults who make the rules and know best: it makes it easier to discuss our needs and worries, because for once we are not in charge

that doesn't mean we don't have a good open relationship round the kitchen table, more that there are certain things that are easier to talk about in a neutral setting

thanks TeWihara, I think it is going better

it's going to be a long haul, but we know that

I saw a counsellor and didn't particularly drag up unhappy memories, it was more seeing a true picture of present day, not one distorted by my hang-ups and low self-esteem.

V helpful.

we were family therapied to death almost, but some of it was really helpful (hooray for the Phoenix centre, where I think as with most ED units it is central to treatment for young people) and some of it was unspeakably awful

in one hospital, even though I'd specifically opted out of the two way mirror thing, they did it without telling us until later - serious breach of consent but who has the energy to complain when they have a very unhappy child in hospital?

cory - If it helps even a tiny bit, my friend is now 25. She still has mental health problems, but when she's in trouble now she asks for help verbally and is doing so well on every level that I think a lot of people who knew her then would never believe. I am ridiculously proud of her! As well as her family, and me. Because it is very tough feeling helpless.

having had therapy and now training (integrative focusing mainly on psychodynamic at the present) it has only been a positive experience

but it is very hard and painful dealing with issues, often you felt you have but you have not dealt with the emotions that go with them. that gets tucked away but resurfaces in other ways (patterns in relationships, fears of being abandoned)

at times i felt like i was having a breakdown but so glad i have done it i can finally own my own feelings, i do not feel bad putting myself first and will not please others in hope they will not turn on me or like me more, they have to like me for me and this has changed my relationship with people. after doing that for 33ish years it was a big break, not one i was always willing to take but thankfully i did and much happier and confident

counsellors are human and may at times make mistakes but i think a good one would address this but like any profession you do get those who are not up to the job, sadly this can be very damaging. I am not sure if there is an answer to this and i struggle with teh notion that some counsellors have behaved in a very unprofessional way and can still practice

and it's not as if there is a shortage of counsellors - supply far outstrips demand apparently, so you'd hope the competition would improve standards (maybe it does?)

Anyone can call themselves a counsellor. The term is not protected. Some are brilliant and highly qualified. Some are not.

To the original poster who talks about "treatments that are not very well, what do I mean? audited?" I'd say go and see a clinical psychologist. The whole profession's ethos is about the scientist-practioner: using therapies that demonstrably work the best (though obviously no one approach works for all of the time), and evaluating the techniques used.

I must declare an interest here. And a few strong opinions. I'm a clinical psychologist. I don't use any "treatments that are not very well, what do I mean? audited?" That would be highly irresponsible and I'd probably be struck off.

you liked that little turn of phrase so much you repeated it twice!

do you accept there are problems with how treatments are audited though - and what constitutes harm, that these areas are desperately under researched?

Under-researched, no way. There are many, many excellent peer-reviewed journals dedicated solely to evaluating treatments. Nothing's perfect, but there's a huge amount of high-quality research going on, showing what works (as much of the time as possible) and what's damaging.

I can hardly find anything that looks thoroughly at adverse outcomes of therapy. Have asked someone to send me some articles so am waiting, although he didn't seem to think there was very much about it at all.

A few points have been raised here that i would like to address.
Anyone can put up a sign saying "Counsellor" and practice. BACP have been trying to get this changed for over 30 years without success. So please check out the counsellor's training before you arrange to see them.

A good counsellor should explain the way they work and do an assessment. This is your chance to check them out and see if you think you can work with them and if what they are offering is good for you. I understand that when meeting a counsellor for the first time the client is in a difficult place and may not be able to work this out straight away.

Regardless of the severity of the issue, the counsellor should schedule reviews every 4-6 sessions. This provides an opportunity to discuss what is/is not working for you and provides an easy exit point.

I always tell my clients that there is a high probability that they will feel worse before they feel better before we contract.

Please do ask your counsellor about their training, qualifications, supervision and if they themselves have received/receive personal therapy.

The OP states that 10% of those receiving counseling feel worse. That means that 90% feel better or the same. This is quite heartening.

it is heartening unless you wonder whether those who don't get better might have, what with so many of these things being self-limiting (and it is the same with antidepressants isn't it, the regression to mean, people eventually getting better anyway) and whether those who do get better might have got better sooner - these are the sorts of things that are under researched and it's not hard to see why

and obviously it is not heartening for the 10% but isn't there something about averse events suggesting that treatments at least do something, in all treatments I mean

Of course some people will get better with time and circumstance, where the circumstances improve. Often by the time people seek help, things are already pretty unbearable and unlikely to improve in the near future.

To say that talking therapies do not help is to dismiss over100 years of study, experimentation, implementation which has more than proven that communication is a key factor in how we feel about the world we live in and how we react to it.

The 10% rate in those who feel worse is applicable to anti depressants also. There is no magic bullet/magic wand. People are individuals and have different problems and have different hopes and outcomes. One size does not fit all. Yet despite this, and the fact that the scientific study of mental health is relatively new there is a fairly decent success rate.

It's not perfect, but it does help and is striving to get even better.

I haven't said they don't help, I'm asking why the blind faith (and it does have a religious basis doesn't it, pastoral sort of thing) that they will or that at very worst will be harmless. That is not the same as dismissing the entire movement out of hand.

I've found counselling totally life changing. I lived an emotional and cognitive half life pre-counselling. I'm quite open with my mates about having had counselling and I know some of them think its self-indulgent but I don't give a toss. I think counselling is a bit like "modern art" some people don't get on with it and that is fine but I get what I need from it.

DP and I also had massive problemos and getting him to come along and see a counsellor with me has been one of my life's biggest achievements :-) One year on and hearing him talk about his feelings, rather than thumping a wall because of ED is like a miracle.

Yes there are crap counsellors and therapists.
I think training is important but I think they also need something akin to the equivalent of innate musicality (F* ME that sounded pretentious). I've been fortunate and been able to have enough disposable income (if I lay off mars bars and stella) to plough through a few initial assessments to find a good one who I "fit with" which is tedious and stressful and expensive but worth it in the end.
me me me me me

But it is not "blind faith". It is the result of more than 100 years of study that never ends.

Give over Fiona . That's great to hear.

I think one of the difficulties for some people when it comes to counselling is that they find it painfully embarrassing to put themselves in the foreground and talk about themselves. Especially if you've been brought up with all the "but there are children starving in Africa" stuff. You need quite a skilled approachable person to break through that.

is the blind faith maybe meaning the kind of willing suspension of disbelief that you have to apply to some extent as a "client"?

I think it goes back further than 100 years doesn't it, before it became secularised anyway.

So do you think it's unreasonable to question why so many people place so much faith in talking therapies, that it's endlessly promoted by so many with little or no heed as to potential unwanted consequences?

Counselling didn't harm me but it didn't help me either. I would come out thinking "well, that was a nice chat but what have I actually achieved" and the answer was nothing. At £50 a time, I just couldn't justify the expense for something that did not help.

Teapots and Mighty you've got me thinking- If the outcomes are difficult to regulate maybe some council or other can at least regulate the costs which can be sooooooo exploitative......

We went for an initial assessment for sex therapy and the organisation/charity wanted to charge us £166 an hour!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! based on our income of £33,000 each. I was like jonas in the sky -that's a bit of a high price for the long term hopeful outcome of eventually getting a shag. Of course they interpreted our "withdrawal" as some massive lack of commitment issue on our part. I'm like I'm not going to spend the first session bartering for a lower cost price for sex cos you'll interpret that too as an issue you losers. Ha thanks sorry I'm glad I've got that off my chest :-) :-) :-) what do you mean I can't make the smilies work properly?????

I think that SOME talking theraphies can be harmful. For example active listening can encourage the client to runinate and gets no where. Active listening is useful for short term councelling, but many clients need more direction.

Sometimes clients can develop transference issues. The client becoming emotionally dependent on the councellor can end up being a bigger problem than the orginal problem.

Reliving the past can make the client more emotionally aroused. This can deepen depression. It can be bad for people with post traumatic stress as the memories become more engrained.

I am reading a book on Human Givens. It suggests that the best councelling helps people meet their emotional needs. Ie. The councellor teaches Billy Nomates so social skills or CBT where negative thinking is challenged.

I have had a few shite councellors; one of them told me off for turning up to her appointment too early even though she had a MASSIVE waiting room. The wierdo. the one at my first uni was a staunch Christian and didn't get me at all. the one at my second uni told me that i wasn't very succesful on my own; er thanks for that

My cbt councellor was great although I don't think it really helped all that much.