to wonder where the belief that counselling is helpful at best/harmlessly ineffective at worst comes from?

[MightyNice]

not just on MN, you see/hear it everywhere - and some people are genuinely shocked by the idea that talking therapies can be damaging, even though that Emory study found about 10% of patients get worse after starting therapy and even though it is now quite widely accepted that debriefing after traumatic events actually causes PTSD

I can only speak from my experiences with coucilling which are..

I felt stuck in some sort of pattern chosing wrong men in my 30's so decided to try a spot of coucilling.

Firstly, I went to my doctor and he referred me to an nhs councilling service. I saw a trainee for a couple of sessions she was also from a muslim background and our ideas conflicted.

Then I got in touch with relate and met a wonderful middle aged lady and took to her immediately. I found it very theraputic to be able to just talk and talk about "me". She just prompted and guided me. I felt such a weight lifted.

What I'm trying to say is it's not a magic cure but finding the right councillor is very important.

Don't know what happened to her,but I did tell the GP to which he replied that noone had ever complained about her before. Felt guilty again after that comment and just put the lid back down again on all the memories which will not be spoken about. Life moves on and sometimes the past should stay in the past.

I think that the blind faith is wishful thinking: counselling is always recommended (on here, for example) for tricky personal situations that others feel ill-equipped to deal with, so people hope that a professional will be able to safely unpick it all. Unfortunately, some people and situations just aren't that easy to fix.

On the advice my my GP years ago it was suggested my son, then four, and exhibiting dreadful behaviour since 18 monhts , see a child psychotherapist (not pyschiatrist with proper medical qualifications in mental health). She set him to play with some little dolls in a dolls house and on the basis of what he did with the "mummy doll" (threw it out of the house or something) told me this meant he had murdersous feelings towards me... and saw his behaviour as my fault. She saw my DH'S bitten nails on another visit and concluded he had aggression issues (he is the most unagressive person I know) from this. God knows why and how she was allowed to practice on the NHS. My son, it turned out, a year or two later having seen a proper psych had ADHD and was suitably treated.

succinct BOF, makes sense

so do you think it just doesn't occur that the professionals might not be equipped either - or that the individual concerned might not be a suitable candidate for therapy (that is another thing lots of people struggle to accept)?

There's a huge difference between someone who is a trained psychotherapist, who has spent years intensively working on their own issues and has undergone a rigorous training - and a 'counsellor' who has done a few weekend courses. Yes there are some unhelpful therapists out there too, I'm sure. I always feel, when people on MN say 'talk to a counsellor', I want to tell them 'but not just any counsellor, find a really good therapist'. The question is, how?

I think you're right re the professionals might not be equipped either.

I investigated training a few years back, and was struck by how unrigorous and fluffy it all was. I also think that it appeals to people as a career when they have problems too- that's not a criticism of counselling candidates, but unless there is fantastic training and supervision you will inevitably get situations like jaffa's.

jaffa - Your GP's response imo was very wrong too.

Le Bof - I think you are right

Flim - You do know that there is no real evidence that psychotherapy as a model of therapy actually works and imo can be damaging for certain kinds of issues. I think it can be successful because of the skills of individual psychotherapists, but simply expounding it on here as a model of therapy that is generally effective is imo wrong.

Counselling worked for me, but I had PND and felt 100% ready to take my issues head on. So, I was ready and I NEEDED to talk about how I was feeling. Counselling was exactly what I needed. But, I can see for some people it would not help them. My counsellor was good. But everyone will have a different experience.

helpyourself - There is research to show that people working in mental health have a higher rate of mental health problems themselves. And sadly some of teh most troubled people I know are also the ones who have told me they want to be counsellors and are doing counselling courses. Obviously does not apply to all counsellors or therapists.

lesley - when it comes to attachment 'therapy' (which I was about when I first heard of it as it sounds straightforwardly abusive to me) . And some of the other approaches listed by MightyNice would be seen by the majority of psychotherapists as iffy at best.

jaffa - I'm really sorry that happened to you. It probably won't help to know this, but a lot of the counsellors attached to GP surgeries are actually trainees working as volunteers to build up their clinical hours. A lot of the time it can work really well, as it creates a large pool of volunteers and makes counselling more accessible to people who wouldn't be able to pay.

But the downside is that people can end up with relatively inexperienced counsellors, sometimes in environments where clients haven't been very thoroughly assessed or the counsellor isn't really in a position to say 'actually I don't think it'd be appropriate for me to take this client because of X that happened to me' and so it can go wrong like it did for you. TBH if you find someone online via the UKCP or BACP website they're likely to be far better trained and considerably more experienced (you need hundreds of hours of clinical experience before you attain accreditation with those bodies) than someone you were referred to via a GP.

It certainly sounds as though whoever was counselling you had experienced something traumatic themselves, was probably not very experienced and most likely hadn't worked through her own stuff sufficiently to be helping someone else process similar events. It must have been very distressing for you though.

lesley33, that's certainly been my observation. It's not necessarily a problem if there is adequate supervision and training, but it doesn't seem to be the case.

I know a few people who have had good experiences of counselling (usually specialist areas of counselling) but my GP practice counsellor was dire. Recommending inner child therapy for OCD trying to flog me extra private sessions trying to block a referral to a psych (I was PG so GP wouldn't prescribe meds) oh and when I did get a psych referral via obs gynae consultant, god bless her, telling me he didn't believe in ADs .

I think Bof raises an excellent point, that even with skilled professional help, some problems are not easy to overcome. I wonder how far the counsellor has taken over the role of the priest, a trustworthy listening ear in our secular society?

I underwent three years of talking therapy at a psychologist from when I was 16. The psychologist was very nice, professional and we had a great relationship.
I have to say, I don't think I'd be as mentally well if it wasn't for that. It helped me deal with the aftermath of a highly abusive childhood. However, I was ready for it, and the first six months were terrible for me. After that it wasn't straight uphill, but I got there.

I can see why it might not be for everyone, it's so draining and it is damaging. But for me, it was essential to live a fairly well adjusted life.

I do find in my own practise that people often get worse before they get better, reliving traumatic events is hard work, therapy is hard work. Those that stick with it until they feel better have usually worked hard and overcome great obstacles to claim good mental well being.

completely agree with this

counselling is the best thing I have ever done and has literally changed my life

I think there are numerous issues here.

If someone is suicidal and has had no response to medication therapy of some kind HAS to be forcefully suggested because what is the alternative?

Some people, like myself (and as the stats would suggest 90% of others people who have had therapy), have had either a positive or neutral response. People advise others based on their own experiences.

The person seeking therapy needs to be in the right place to listen and take advice given. Not everyone is suited to this and some who could be just aren't ready yet.

Some therapists are crap.same as all professions. If the one you have doesn't help try somewhere else!

Anyone can set themselves up as a counsellor.
So you have people offering inappropriate/dangerous 'therapy' as well as the good, qualified ones.

There are loads of different types of counselling/therapy

Everyone who seeks counselling is different and goes for different reasons.

It is impossible to tell how much good/harm it does because how can you boil it all down to a single factor?

I do think there is far to much talk of 'bereavement counselling' for people who are experiencing normal grief. Its like a bloody magic bullet.

I cant tell you the amount of times I have been offered it or asked if I have had it. Like it will change my life and make it all better

I dont thik counselling/therapy is for everyone or for every issue but it certainly has its place.

I am with fuzzy too. Councilling hurt. I didn't leave a single session with dry eyes. But it changed my life. I would have been miserable, lost and in destructive relationships without it.

I've met quite a lot of therapists through a related field I've been involved in, and I'd say most if not all of them have some kind of 'wound' that they've had to deal with. I agree it can be the most fucked up people who seem to be drawn to becoming a counsellor. But on the other hand, the therapists who have dealt with their own issues sufficiently well, can be incredibly wise, insightful, kind and helpful.

Manatee's post is interesting re the people recommended by GPs.

lesley: simply expounding it on here as a model of therapy that is generally effective is imo wrong

Even if you're right about the lack of evidence for effectiveness, what is the alternative? Tell people to just muddle through, stuck in their suffering? I think there is huge value merely in being able to say anything you want to a neutral listening person who is not personally involved, who doesn't have their own agenda, except concern for your wellbeing.

In our area counsellors at GP surgeries are not trainees.

The biggest problem for me is that a lot of therapy is offered privately and it is how the therapist earns their living. That seems to set up an immediate conflict of interest. On my first (!) session with one therapist she 'warned' me that I would 'have to commit to the long haul' and it could take two years.

I was made to feel guilty that couldn't 'commit' to this time - as I sat in her consulting room on the ground floor of her lovely and vast Victorian house...

Bollocks to that. I had just had some very upsetting news and I wanted help to deal with that. Not pay huge amounts of money once a week for years or until she deemed I was 'cured'. Tbh, I think most of it is a dangerous racket practised on the vulnerable.

Counselling can dredge up issues that you weren't even aware of and only succeed in making you a lot unhappier than you were before. I'm speaking from experience btw.

On the other hand, when not feeling distressed about things I wasn't aware of, I found it fairly useful. It was CBT therapy with a little counselling thrown in.