to think that before worrying about literacy/numeracy standards in nursery staffs the same standards in teaching assistants in schools should be addressed?

[people]

I'm on the fence about nursery workers TBH. If we want better qualified staff we'll have to pay more. Affordable childcare v better literacy among those who care for our 2 yos?

But, I am shocked by the standard of literacy and numeracy among LSA's at my primary school (I work there). I know there are many very good and properly qualified LSA's but they don't have to be qualified.

In affluent areas there are loads of bright and well qualified mothers who, having taken time out from their original career are looking for local work that fits around school hours and the jobs are easily filled by highly literate people.

However, my experience (in a "rough" area) is that most of the LSAs barely finished school themselves, certainly have few GCSEs and it shows TBH. They are good with the children, but their spoken and written grammar is appalling (don't check mine ). When they're paid not much more than minimum wage it's probably not surprising, but these people are often left in sole charge of lessons in our primary school. Does it matter? The argument is that the lesson has been prepared by a qualified teacher and the LSA is just delivering it. Also their's no money to employ teachers to cover PPA etc.

In both cases this is the product of teaching to the test and lowering standards to get bums on seats in colleges.

Schools have been teaching to the test for some years now. It does not produce educated young people. It merely supplies them with meaningless certificates and looks good in league tables for the schools.

Colleges will now except virtually anyone on their courses. For some courses all you need is a pulse, certainly not GCSE C or above. Once a student is enrolled on a course, they are incredibly unlikely to be thrown off, even if they rarely go. Back to league tables again, colleges want to show 100% success rates. So you have poorly qualified entrants on childcare courses who colleges have to pass. So who is surprised when these now qualified professionals are not very literate?

I am fully aware that this does not apply to all, but it does to many. I am also aware that this applies to many courses definitely not just childcare.

www.itv.com/news/story/2012-03-24/concern-over-literacy-and-numeracy-levels-in-childminders/

^^Thats been all over the news today; poor standards of literacy with childminders, nursery nurses etc. Espeacially with nursery nurses who have very basic qualifications.

Nursery staff and childminders are allowed to work at pre-school groups without displaying basic literacy or numeracy skills, according to a Government-commissioned review.

Colleges demand more qualifications for students training to look after animals than for those who will care for babies, the report said

do we really WANT gcse Maths and English above all else in nursery staff? I want somebody who likes kids and cares about mine not somebody who can do long devision

I qualified as a nursery nurse in 1988 with 1 grade C O Level and 6 Grade 2 CSE's - I managed fine (now have 6 GCSE's 3 A levels, a degree and a masters but still not GCSE Maths!)

You don't need 'better qualifications' to care for animals - for a level 1 NVQ in either subject you need very basic skills ...to do a BTEC National in either subject you will need 4 GCSE's at grade c (usually to include English and Maths)...to study to be a vet you need A's at A level in Maths/Science ...to teach you don;t (Unless you want to tach maths and science)

you don;t need a degree to provide high quality care to a child under 5 - you need a big heart, common sense and humour

and to actually answer the OP! I'd rather the gov found more money for TEACHERS than relied more and more on TA's - but that said, the TA's at our school (poor area) are brilliant - I don;t know wat their maths and English grades are but I know they have boundless energy, bags of enthusiasm and the kids love them

DD2 is 3 and is currently learning to count and write her name. How literate does the nursery staff really need to be? At this age they should be playing, they will start school soon enough, and I would prefer someone who had a good way with children to look after my DC than someone just because they are highly educated.

I am a T.A in a school considered to be in a rough area and I have a degree as do most of my colleagues-indeed several are actual teachers who have been unable to find a teaching job so are working as T.As. It is quite hard to get a job as a T.A and thus the qualifications are considered an important element of the application process and also you generally need a NVQ 3 and a C level minimum in English and Maths at GCSE level.

In affluent areas there are loads of bright and well qualified mothers who, having taken time out from their original career are looking for local work that fits around school hours and the jobs are easily filled by highly literate people

Personally I find that the biggest problem in all areas.

Do I want someone helping to teach my child just because it fits around school hours and they don't need to worry about childcare?

No thanks. I'd rather someone who actually wants to work with children no matter what their personal circumstance.

I'm a TA in a 'rough' school and have 9 gcse's, 4 A-levels, a degree and my L3 TA diploma. Most of the TA's I work with are either graduates or former teachers. In order to get on my L3 TA course I had to prove that I'd obtained GCSE C+ in maths and English. And TA jobs are like gold dust right now, so the skill set of many L3 TA's tends to go above the requirements of the L3 diploma.

It's a demanding role. On a daily basis I go from 1:1 work with pupils (EAL SEN etc..), supporting groups, preparing/developing/creating resources and having an input in planning/assessment to finding PE kits and cleaning out the school pets In my LA we are subject to performance management so I have to keep a portfolio of evidence and meet a number of objectives in order to progress up the pay scale.

I don't think that anyone could cope in the job if they did not have decent literacy/numeracy standards.

From personal experience I don't think schools hire people with excellent qualifications in other areas to be T.A's unless they have proven in the application process to have skills the children would benefit from and show a genuine interest in being a T.A. It works the other way around in that T.A's are expected to be mini teachers, plan, work overtime, deal with difficult situations and prepare and cope with quite complicated work but without the specialised training or PPA time that teachers have had and for seven pounds an hour. And then get complained about when they make a small error!

Alistron1-I concur-I love my job but sometimes it feels like we are treated like minions but also expected to do everything a teacher does but without an actual living wage due to the hours we work. I could not do it without my partner (a teacher) to pay the mortgage. But it is hard, we are watched by OFSTED when they visit, have to liase with professionals and keep portfolios etc and it surprises me to think that you can do this job without a certain level of numeracy and English. It is hard to quickly mark for example childrens maths questions at KS2 and above.

I have often had to correct the teacher I have been working with because they are also not infallible and might excel in some areas but struggle with correct grammar.

Oh and I am level three and still not allowed to be in sole charge of lessons OP. That would require a Higher Level TA qualification which would ensure the TA was of a high standard in literacy, numeracy and indeed everything else.

My partner is a teacher too cyberfairy! But yes, we are scrutinised (by OFSTED and during lesson obs.) and are often the ones liasing with external professionals, previous schools (that kids have moved on from) and parents. We are also the ones that observe children and flag up issues (eg SEN) and are the people that deal with behavioural issues so that teachers can get on with teaching. I sometimes have to take work home with me so that I can get things done. From when I get in at 8 to when I leave at 3:30 (am contracted to do 8:30 to 3:30 with a 20 min lunchtime duty - in reality I get no lunchtime) I am on the go non stop.

I do love it though I think in many ways we get a better deal than teachers because we get to do a lot more direct work with individual/groups of children and it is a great feeling when you see a child progress because (in part) of your input.

Can I be incredibly pedantic whilst we are considering poor Literacy standards, and point out that it's TAs - not TA's?

Thank you.

I was waiting for such a post Feenie. This is why I seldom post on here.

I am a product of the 70's/80's education system where no one learned us the finer points of grammar/punctuation. If it helps I can knock up an algorithm to model oil flow through a pipe system in a heartbeat And I am VERY good at hunting down lost PE kits and school jumpers.

Really? I wasn't nasty, just pointing a misconception out to sevearl posters. If you want to take it personally, that's up to you. Or maybe you could just take the point and learn from it?

several

LOL @ sevearl Maybe us TA's/TAs aint the only ones needing some literacy help

I thought TA's was valid 'cos after all it is an abbreviation and an acronym. Am willing to learn though, I'll stick it in my portfolio

I always understood that LSAs may NOT be left in sole charge of a whole class. They are also not supposed to be delivering any work to the class, regardless of who planned it. In our LA,LSAs are employed solely to work with children who are funded, either via a Statement or Validated Hours. TAs may work with a small group/up to half a class, but again, in support of the teacher, not in place of them. HLTAs are able to take a whole class and deliver work planned either by the teacher or by themselves in conjunction with the teacher. The level of qualifications required for each, differs, but in our LA, the latest advertisements even for LSAs are requiring at least NVQ 2 or the current equivalent.

When I became an HLTA I was required to show evidence, not only of my NVQ 3 and other relevant qualifications, but also I had to prove that I had achieved at least a 'C' grade in Maths and English Language at either GCSE or 'O' Level. As my qualifications were so old (!) I had to take the Adult Literacy and Numeracy certificates to prove I hadn't forgotten it all!

And whilst it would be nice to think that all staff involved in looking after/educating our children would have relevant qualifications in literacy and numeracy, I think that whilst there are teachers, who presumably have both, who seem blissfully unaware of basic grammar, spelling and numeracy, why would we expect a nursery worker to be any better?

Got there before you to rescue my typo - phew! [grin}

It's plural - plurals don't need apostrophes, and nor do abbreviations/acronyms.

Only two reasons for apostrophes - ownership or missing letters in don't, mustn't, etc.

Sayit, because my degree included a 'core skills' module (and I had my transcript to prove it) I was saved having to do the lit/num tests!! The HTLA process is rigorous to say the least - kudos to you for doing it!!

As a Level 3 TA I am not allowed to be in charge of a class/deliver lessons. On the one occasion where there was an emergency and I was in command control for 30 minutes a member of the office staff had to sit in the class with me for 'legal reasons' - I have to admit I abandoned the lesson and read the kids a story

I am near to finishing my foundation degree in early years, I did my NNEB in the dark ages, and did reasonably well. However, am keen to do my BA and EYPS , but didnt get a o level in maths. they dont recognise CSE.

am stuck, need to find £300 for exam in may and private tutor on top.

as i work part time, i cant get hold of that sort of cash. so am stumped.

I personally find that the current NVQ3 doesnt really compare to the two years as a NNEB. I spent time in a varied amount of different settings , and gained first hand experience in caring for children, and in one place, special needs adults, who were , in effect still children IYSWM. I fed these grown children , bathed them and changed their nappies and played with them.

I worked in settings with children with the poorest children and a varity of social problems.
I worked in nursery, schools and hosptial.
I had a nanny placement, and looked after a small baby and two other children. ( I can understand why this has stopped though!!)
I gained confidence in speaking to parents, teachers and all aspects of child care, and improved my knowledge of children, and how they learn.

Is the lack of maths and english ability the real cause for concern? or is it the current teaching of early years?

Hello, I don't generally comment in AIBU but this is something that I happen to know a bit about as I've been interviewing TAs recently and was really frustrated by the lack of concern about basic English and maths! I definitely agree with the OP. I'm sure that in other schools there are lots of very well qualified TAs but it's not the case in the secondary school where I work and I do think it's a problem. My head teacher is quite happy to take TAs without English and maths GCSE if they seem friendly, helpful people, but then they are expected to help students across a range of subjects, which they aren't always equipped to handle. Although they don't generally deliver lessons, in my English lessons they do often lead a small group, help with GCSE coursework and do one-on-one. Of course they can be brilliant at managing challenging behaviour, great at supporting children with SEN, helpful with general admin, but ultimately, their role in a secondary classroom is to support academic progress.

"I am near to finishing my foundation degree in early years, I did my NNEB in the dark ages, and did reasonably well. However, am keen to do my BA and EYPS , but didnt get a o level in maths. they dont recognise CSE.

am stuck, need to find £300 for exam in may and private tutor on top.

as i work part time, i cant get hold of that sort of cash. so am stumped."

Would a Learn Direct Numeracy course be any good, eragon? A Level Two pass is the equivalent of GCSE Maths Grade C and might be accepted for BA and EYPS. It's free.