to think that before worrying about literacy/numeracy standards in nursery staffs the same standards in teaching assistants in schools should be addressed?

[people]

I'm on the fence about nursery workers TBH. If we want better qualified staff we'll have to pay more. Affordable childcare v better literacy among those who care for our 2 yos?

But, I am shocked by the standard of literacy and numeracy among LSA's at my primary school (I work there). I know there are many very good and properly qualified LSA's but they don't have to be qualified.

In affluent areas there are loads of bright and well qualified mothers who, having taken time out from their original career are looking for local work that fits around school hours and the jobs are easily filled by highly literate people.

However, my experience (in a "rough" area) is that most of the LSAs barely finished school themselves, certainly have few GCSEs and it shows TBH. They are good with the children, but their spoken and written grammar is appalling (don't check mine ). When they're paid not much more than minimum wage it's probably not surprising, but these people are often left in sole charge of lessons in our primary school. Does it matter? The argument is that the lesson has been prepared by a qualified teacher and the LSA is just delivering it. Also their's no money to employ teachers to cover PPA etc.

The current NVQ3 is a joke! A few years ago the level 3 meant something, now you can qualify without even working in a setting, just volunteering for a couple of hours a week. It completely undermines what an NVQ was meant to be - recognition of skills used in the workplace.

I did my level 3 last year. it wasn't an NVQ (we were told that the NVQ was gone) it was a L3 C&G diploma in the specialist support of teaching and learning in schools. We had to do 300 placement hours and produce a portfolio of written assignments/evidence that in my case spanned hundreds (at least 400 iirc) of pages. It was hard work, and more stressful/rigorous than I had anticipated.

But a level 3 used to indicate a level of responsibility in the workplace and recognition of that. It's obviously all changed now! Maybe that's why they are not called NVQs now

The school staff are assisting qualified teachers who are presumably setting the work, checking it and marking it. Some nursery staff will not be assisting anyone, they will be in charge of literacy and numeracy themselves, or teaching these without an assistant. However I agree LSAs should have a good standard of literacy and numeracy themselves, as should nursery staff.

Only way to attract a better calibre of LSAs (on average that is - I know there are some great LSAs already there!) is to up the qualifications and pay. Sadly unlikely at the moment I should think.

Actually I think they are both very important and not to be pitted against each other.

I absolutely believe that early childcare educators should be trained. And I would only use ece centres with fully trained staff.

Lee - the L3 course I did required candidates to demonstrate a level of accountability/pro activeness within the role. For example, we were required to produce resources in line with NC requirements for literacy/numeracy, demonstrate/provide evidence for input into planning/assessment for learning and document + verify our 300 hours of practice.

For the role I have now there were over 120 applicants - 8 of us were called for interview and as well as being grilled by a panel we had to do a presentation about the role of a LSA/TA/LSP and how we would contribute to the SDP.

LeeCoakley

"The current NVQ3 is a joke!"

so even the qualifications that devalued qualifications are devalued!

you couldn't make it up

I live in a 'rough area'. TAs at the school are very diverse, but all perfectly literate/numerate, respectable and decent role models.

How would you feel about dyslexic LSAs??

Literacy and numeracy is far far down the list of attributes I would value in a nursery worker

thats my dds primary school

Ah, according to lequeen I don't exist... I must add for her benefit that I have 2 grammar school teenagers of my own and no way can they run rings around me in anything. And according to others my L3 qualification is 'a joke' and I can't speak, spell, write or do maths.

I have to say that I could not work in a nursery class. I spent 20 minutes in one the other week and emerged looking like I'd encountered the zombie apocalypse.

Kudos to EYFS workers. I salute you all

TA roles pay less than nursery jobs though, to be honest all pay for support staff really needs to be upped if they want the higher educated people to apply

Although I inwardly wince at the shocking grammar and almost entire absence of capital letters in my DD's nursery newsletters, the main thing for me is that the nursery staff like children, are nurturing and caring in their approach and can do their job and build relationships with the children well.
I couldn't give a shiney shite if they had not an A level between 'em.

government have got their mits into the early years now, so it's only a matter of time before they move on to poor teaching assistants

Not going to comment on TAs, but the fuss about nursery workers is ludicrous. Whether someone can care for and love a small child has nothing whatsoever to do with numeracy or literacy. Some of the best nursery carers my DC had struggled on both counts.

I apologise for any derogatory comments about your level 3 qualification alistron1. My gripe was with NVQs. If they aren't called these any more I'm pleased. NVQs were a way for employees without paper qualifications to prove that they were competent to do their job. By allowing non-employees to gain level 3s in their spare time devalued the qualification for people who could be competing for jobs with others who didn't have the same sort of experience. I definitely don't think your qualification is a joke - it sounds very thorough.

And I'm glad most people on this thread want nursery workers who love and care for their children over and above spelling ability.

Lee - thanks for that! From my understanding the L3 structure has been changed. I know that in my area the only L3 courses offered are professional and rigorous - and L3 job specs in my LA reflect that. As I said earlier we are subject to LA wide performance management once in role so maybe that is why. The objectives set for L2 and L3 roles are very different.

How do you measure love and care for a child? One person's idea of loving and caring for a child can be vastly different from another's.

I still hear many adults talk to children in a hugely condescending manner, something that trained ece workers do not do. First and foremost they respect the child as a precious individual.

Educated carers for babies understand what babies need and don't overstimulate them, cluck at them or treat them like a cuddly toy.

Educated pre school teachers recognise the child's interest and work to extend it.

The early years are so important, so many building blocks put into place. Equip the pre schooler with confidence, social competence, self and other respect, and the child will flourish.

Not to say the educator has to be a top speller, but in my view they do need to be educated in their field.

tbh the last thing I want is super-educated nursery staff. They need to be able to count to twenty, read literature that appeals to under 5s and generally outwit babies and toddlers. Nursery staff spend a lot of time wiping noses and bums. I want people who are caring and nurturing. I don't want graduates who are too posh to change nappies.

wimini - assumption there about graduates being posh...and anyone who wanted to work in a nursery knows nappy changing is part of it

but other than that, I agree with you about the most important attributes of a nursery worker. I would add an understanding of child development and the ability to look at the reasons underlying difficult behaviour

cateofcatehall

thank you will take a look. so many of the more mature students in my group (who have done very well on the foundation degree) are not going any further, the younger ones with GCSEs are going ahead. They dont have families and other costs to juggle, so its slightly easier for them to continue.

i feel that the degree has started my brain working after being a mum for so long iyswim. its seems a shame to stop now.

thanks again.