Has living abroad.....

[bijou3]

Put your children at a disadvantage academically?

We were planning to move back to Turkey last year (DH is Turkish) and when visiting schools I was assured by several heads that the language was never a problem but that UK kids were usually a year or two behind in Maths!

I went to school in the Middle East from 4-18yrs and came to the UK for University. I did do GCEs at O-level (in 1998, mark you) but then got to do A-levels so I was at same level as British students. I think the experience was very good overall and I'm definitely better at understanding different international accents than my friends who grew up here.

Just don't go to the International School of Choueifat. The one I went to was APPALLING (not sure if this applies to all of them but it's the only school I've ever heard of where the students designed a 'I hate this school' website. Which had HUNDREDS of hits and comments).

Yes and No.

Yes in that dc is now more proficient in 2nd Language than mother tongue - certainly for spelling, some vocab and grammar. Would be fine moving back with maths, probably ok with science but English would concern me.

No in that dc is bilingual, excellent orally and aurally, fluent in both and top of her class in maths. Has also done very well with essays, grammar,presentations and dictation in second language given the fact not a native speaker with native speaker parents.

Has made it through a complex judgemental school system through to the equivalent of grammar school. But not without a lot of blood, sweat and tears on my part.

We're in the Middle East, DD is in the second school in this country (the second ME country we've lived in). The first had teachers who weren't fully qualified.

Not sure about the one they're in now. Most of the teachers are British/South African/Irish/Canadian and are mostly great. The problem the school has is politics. No matter how great the Principal is, if his ideas don't tie in with the 'influentials' at the top of the tree then they're out. One good Principal was ousted just before the 2011-2012 school year, and the great guy who replaced him was given his marching orders two weeks ago.
There is also a high turnover of teaching staff so it seems hard for the school to gain real momentum.
The majority of kids in our school are local so not native English speakers, and many come to school with not a word of English. My DS's teacher admitted last year that she had to work very, very hard to ensure that the EFL kids weren't disadvantaged by the non-speakers.
We have a choice of 1 school where I am so there's not a huge amount I can do about it...

I agree with a previous poster and her comments about Choueifat schools, I've heard that they're all pretty brutal.

DD was in a UK curriculum school in the first Middle East country we were in and the teaching and admin staff were all British. The school was old but had great facilities, small class sizes and great teachers. Had we stayed there then I would have said she would have been at an advantage over most UK state educated children.

One thing I would note (and it's slightly off topic, but still relevant) is that in some parts of the world, whilst the international schools (Independent) are good in their own right, they are possibly poor value compared to UK private schools.

e.g In HK, some of the private schools are about the same cost as the top London day schools, and many parents feel they are poor value by comparison academically, although children seem very happy in them.

Some parents do send their children back to the UK to board for secondary, although this is usually because of concerns over consistency (if they plan to move every 2 years or so), or sometimes because the children themselves want to be in a school where 25% of the children in their year aren't leaving every year.

Yes RealLife, I totally agree with what you've said (can't speak for HK as I know nothing about it, but paragraphs 1 and 3 I understand what you're saying completely).

Your Middle east may be behind but mine isn't thank you very much. Best thing we ever did, better than the private school path. we have a non selective, multicultural school with almost no behaviour issues happy kids can play out after dark, no crime, no danger. Also in other countries, kids are welcome everywhere, treated with respect and care rather than as potential hooligans. Sorry to sound anti UK, I am not but I am anti people making sweeping judgemnents on the life I and my family have without having sampled it.

Who's made such statements theorodakis? (sorry, skimmed some posts).

.... My DS is only 2.8 (but has been at school for a year) and I do feel that he isn't progressing as fast as if he was in a UK nursery - mostly because he's the only native english speaker in his class (bilingual international school) so there isn't the same level of peer learning as if they were all english speaking. However, I fully expect that by normal school age that will have changed and they all also have a good few languages under there belt (well two for my son as he's disadvantaged by having two mono-lingual parents!) which has got to outweigh any disadvantages re learning letters and numbers early.

I'm a good few years out of date myself but we moved around a lot when I was young and I think it massively depends on the country and the school - it's impossible to generalise. I went to non-UK schools that were excellent (admittedly most were not international) and one international school in particular that I thought was appalling (they very much strove for average). so i ended up back at boarding school in the UK by 13 and that was completely the best decision for me (but not for my sisters so it's totally individual!)

I think in terms of pure academics, there will be moments where they sit in class and go "eh??" (happened to me a few tims - mostly in British history classes!) but those times are few and far between and the advantages of living abroad in terms of socialisation and flexibility make up for any little gaps in knowledge.

DD and I recently returned to the UK. She is in Y6 and will start SATS in May.
She is, I would say ahead of her class for everything except history. She has been to three Intl schools, one with the UK curriculum and two doing the IB.
IMO, she has been advantaged. She is flexible and considerate. Those are more important to me than educational acheivments. Doubt Uni selectors would agree though.

Definitely. ds was 7 and moved back into Year 3 having had very little formal learning and structure at his international school (PYP , IB). The lack of a solid foundation and more relaxed curriculum (ie no times tables or writing, inconsistent use of systems like phonics) dogged him for several years although he was not helped by being dyspraxic and discovering that the PYP system did not play to his strengths anyway. He did however go on to gain an academic scholarship at 13, so overcame the disadvantage long term. Ironically dd who only attended preschool there for a term before we moved to UK would probably have benefitted more from that school and has a flair for languages.

My DC's are in the French system (bilingual) but in an International Lycee in a country very biased towards the British system.... are you keeping up ;)
So it can appear he is behind - because the French system teaches reading and writing later and of course if you compare it to the kids next door of the same age but in the British system this is noticeable. If they were in a Lycee in France or a country biased to the French system this would not be noticeable.

Also the French run a January to December system for entry into school and as my two are born late in the year this means they are amongst the youngest in their classes - so the equivalent of July/August born in the British system. So you could argue that in this case they are disadvantaged by the system we have chosen in that regard.

But on the other hand both kids are comfortable flipping between langauages and I'm sure that the differences in cirriculum will even out in a few years. And I do think this tends to outweigh the previous two issues.

However I totally agree with Kirsty75005 the French system is not "kind" to those who aren't academic and the concept of pastoral care seems to have passed them by. Although this is a personal opinion of this particular school - other Lycee's are probably better (Those who know me know I have very strong views on this particular school and the current teachers )

I have recently moved back to the UK from the Middle East. It has taken me ages to fill the gaps in my child?s education; they?re behind most of their class in every subject and they have not been exposed to any competitive sports despite being very sporty. I really think that their education has suffered because they were educated in the Middle East.

No. At worst its neutral, IMO it enriched the experience.

bijou3, I have a friend whose twin boys did their first two years of education in the middle east, and when they returned to the uk, their teacher was appalled that they did not have even the most basic standards of mathematical knowledge. Their reading was not too bad, although their writing was ok. They can however speak a fair bit of Arabic. It has taken them a good year or so to come up to the standard of their peers. Their mum was devastated when she realized, and when she moves back to the me is looking at alternative ways to have them educated.

I think it entirely depends what sort of education you're leaving and what sort you're gaining.

If you're leaving a fab school for a fairly uninspiring interational school where the cohort changes every two years, then you might want to think again.

I think it depends entirely on the school you go to and your child. Unsurprisingly some schools will give your children an advantage and others will not do so. It will not be the same school for every child.

Hmm Ds is currently being educated in the Middle East and has just had some GCSE module results. I think A*, A, A, B, B. Is ok considering he was predicted D/C. I am very pleased with his education. And yes he is well rounded participating in school, shows, team and individual sports, debate and charity work.
Personally I think the OP's question is a bit how long is a piece of string. There are shite schools everywhere and the Middle East is no exception. Moral of the tale, do your research.

I think also that moving between school systems - even if both systems are very good - can have unfortunate consequences.

For example, many school systems -almost all Western European ones, for example - don't do learning to read till 6. Children will be exposed to books and stories before that, and parents may teach their children to read, but the year in school where they are sat down and taught to read is when they are 6.

There are good reasons for doing this, and I personally prefer this approach. I think that with something as basic as reading skills it's more important to do it right and do it right for all students than to get it over with fast and there are a lot of drawbacks to a school system where reading is taught earlier.

However, if you're transferring from Western Europe to Britain just as your child turns 6 then you have big problems, however good the sytems, individually, may be.

How old are your kids bijou?

My sons are 6 and 9. We moved back here after spending 3 years in Norway. My youngest went from nursery to a Year 2 class, and my oldest joined year 5.

It has been a lot easier for my youngest, even though he has had the biggest change, and the largest chunk of home work. He is learning reading from scratch, and since September he has completed Reception and gone to middle of Y1 level for reading. He is at the same level as the rest of his class for maths, and joined the bottom group for spellings in class. They are really pleased with him, but he has had lots of support from the Senco, and we have been working really hard at home.

My Year 5 boy is a different story, we are still discovering the gaps in his learning. He sees a tutor once a week, and get homework from her.

It depends if you want to go in and out of the UK system (and where you are educating them). I know of a couple of families who took a year or two out at a critical time in their children's education (e.g. entry into secondary when they wanted a grammar) who then found it very hard to get back into the UK system where they wanted, although the better language skills did somewhat compensate. I also know that some countries like Poland have very high maths skills demanded of the older pupils and a UK educated child may have difficulty switching there, conversely I know people from France and UK at undergraduate level who went to the US and were considered more advanced. Not all systems are inter-changeable, even if they are good in their own right.

OP, dare we ask in which country your DCs were educated? Where we were the was huge variation between the schools depending on which system they followed. The UK curriculum schools on the whole were excellent. There were a couple though which were to be avoided with a barge pole.

Yes, it was Dubai. 3 BC schools all of them awful. The worst part was the fact that despite learning Arabic for 4 hours each week neither child has a clue how to read, write or speak the language. Dubai is so transient the teachers changed each year as did the students, the curriculum started with the basic counting and alphabet each September so unfortunately the children didn?t progress.

Sounds to me like you just had bad luck with the schools that your DCs attended. Mine were in DESS (Doha) followed by DC and we couldn't have asked for better. Both schools had lots of swimming, Rugby, soccer etc so the kids were certainly not deprived of physical activity. Lots of inter-school competitions as well. I know that there is a real mix in Dubai and that some of the schools have had serious problems. Sorry that your DCs didn't have good experiences.

My experience (now dated) as it is my experience rather than that of my DCs is that international schools tend not to be great. French schools on the other hand tend to be brilliant for the academically inclined.