To be really fucked off with the "make bradford british" q+a session?

[northcountrygirl]

I live in a town close to Bradford, that has the same levels of segregation. My children go to nusery/school in a village next to an "asian area" with about a quarter of the children being muslim, so all 3 of my children have a lot of muslim friends. My questions were completely ignored.

I totally agree that we need to integrate the communities more. My questions were (roughly - can't remember how I phrased it):

1. I live in a town close by and totally agree with Sabbiyah's comment on the need for cohesion. My children have a lot of muslim friends (my son's friends are nearly all muslim). The problem I find is that whilst the children integrate well at school there is absolutely NO integration outside of school. Party invitations and invitations to tea after school are declined (or more often than not completely ignored). Why do you think this is? Is it because of worries over Halal food not being served? Or something more deep seated?

1. (along the same lines) In my childrens' school the children themselves integrate very well up to about year 4. From year 5 onwards you can see the divide if you pass the school at playtimes. My own son was told by (some) of the white boys that they would only play with him if he fell out with his muslim friends. I feel that as the children start socialising out of school, the parents are not allowing the two cultures to mix. How do we, as parents, enable the children to socialise outside school?

I really feel the answers to these questions are important (to me at least). Last year all my sons friends were muslim (in year 5). He was getting upset as his sister was always having friends over for tea and sleepovers and also getting invited back, whilst he was constantly on his own. In the end I reluctantly had to tell him that in was unlikely his muslim friends would ever be coming for tea and maybe he should start playing with some of the non muslim children. Which he did.

NB - not being racist by referring to children as "white" or "muslim". The school they are at is bicultural rather than multicultural.

I understood the trouble with Bradford, I taught in both a Muslim boys school (state) and a white mixed school, was that all Pakistani Muslims were from a similar poor area of Pakistan. The first immigrants had a poor level of education and so their children couldn't speak about their English education at home and didn't really learn their parents language well either, by the time I taught their children they could barely speak any Urdu/Punjab and their English was not good either.

I live in Bristol and communities don't mix, not even in the playgrounds unless there is a very small minority who have no choice. Many Muslim girls cover at school but not at home or at the weekend, I see this as an absolute symbol of wanting to be separate. Uniform of any religion separates it's followers.

My dd is in school in Brussels - a city where 25% of the population is from else where. She has many muslim friends at school but I too have noticed the lack/refusal of invitations. It also makes me a bit cross that whilst the education is secular here, they split them for the 2 hours of RE they have each week. As dd is the only one of "protestant" origin, she does Ethics, whilst the class is pretty much split evenly between Islam and Catholicism. I really wish they just covered "religion" all together. They are growing up in a truly multi-cultural society and I feel school is missing a trick here.

I live in bradford, the house featured in the show is just down the road. The village I live in is majority white and my daughter attends the local primary. I work at a nursery school that is pretty much down the middle white british and asian muslim with a few black and eastern european families. Its on a large council estate and in my opinion is very well integrated. The children play alongside each other but the parents also integrate well. I think what unites them above religion and culture is they are living alongside each other in hard financial times. The families that don't intergrate as well and tend to 'stick together' are the eastern europeans but I think that's because of the language barrier as they are very friendly.
The village I live in is a different story, its a mixture of white middle class (closet racists) and white working class (openly racist) I'm not saying everyone but the ones who are small minded tend to fall into these types. My children are mixed race (half white and half black) their dad is black british born but originally Caribbean. My daughter has always been accepted. If she were half asian she probably would not be.

For some bizarre reason in Bradford some people refer to black people or anypne part black as Jamaican! Its not usually meant in an offensive way but it still very ignorant.
Time and time again I hear the phrase "iv got nowt against Jamaicans but I can't stand pakis" people have said it to me after they have asked if my daughter is Jamaican! It would be funny if it weren't so sad!

Anyway at school she plays with the few asian girls as well as the white girls but the asian girls haven't been to any of her partys. I do think its a culture thing though. When she was younger she attended my workplace nursery and her best friend was muslim, but she was a black muslim whose parents were black british and they went on loads of playdates together and I became good friends with her mum.

My daughter has come home from school lots of times telling me racist things that have been said directed at the asian girls but she has yet to experience racism herself.

I think a lot of white working class in Bradford have been hyped up by the BNP and EDF to think that asian Muslims are the enemy. Damon on the show was a typical example of this.

However there are loads and loads of white people in bradford young and old who work and live alongside and are friends with asian muslims (myself included) I accept my friends cultures and differences as they do mine. Its a shame this wasn't represented in the programme.

But in Bradford the racism cuts both ways, Asians are opening racist against whites and blacks. It's a dreadful example of how not to organise a community. I have personally experienced racism in Bradford as a white woman.

Me too, when I was younger a car with 2 asian lads pulled up and asked for my number and when I said no I was called a white slag! There is racism on both sides. I think Bradford is a city that's been left behind. I think because of the high unemployment, lack of adequate housing, scruffy run down city centre etc means people are more negative minded and resentful on all sides. I do think the BNP have a lot to answer for. And the government in general.

I wonder if with some parents it is about fears they may have that aren't true around drinking for example. I was shocked when a muslim friend who comes out on some things, but not where we are going to be drinking alcohol asked if when we went to a pub we all ended up drunk and falling about.

When I asked her more about what she meant, she thought we would all be totally pissed every time we went somewhere and drank alcohol. I explained that that wasn't the case. But it did help me understand why she didn't want to socialise with us if we were planning to drink alcohol wherever that might be.

I've only read the OP really, and apols for being quite ignorant of what's going on...there are very few other cultures apparent at my kids' school, which kind of makes me sad.

Anyway, something just struck me, from reading it, that sometime it feels safer and easier to socialise out of school with people who are naturally living the same lifestyle as you. And if that involves culturally different meals and timing and rituals (I don't mean in the relgious sense necessarily, but the details of how a family will operate in their own home, who does what at what time and so on) then perhaps so much simpler not to try to work out all the necessary adjustments and differences, but to stay within the social circle you already know and take for granted.

If the effort is madr to integrate during school hours/in the playground/talking to other parents at pick up then I don't think it's anyone's business to demand anything on top of this...iyswim.

Home is home, sometimes, and school is school and people are allowed to keep those things separate. I don't feel there should be pressure to have contact outside school if it isn't wanted.

Saying that I understand about parties and play dates and so on but it's up to each family I think if they want their children to attend.

Maybe I'm missing the point. I know I don't particularly enjoy socialising with the other mums at school, I mean they're a nice bunch but twice a day is fine by me. Nights out as a group, parties together, no thankyou - it stops at the school gate, and I have a family and friends I see outside of the school community and that's how I like it. Just by default, not deliberately being exclusive.

I think probably somewhere like Bradford these issues are much more close to the surface though so I am probably not seeing the big picture.

Oh I missed this programme - where can I get it. I don't live near bradford but I do remember in the mid 80's I went to visit the uni - after visiting it I didn't put it down as a choice, the main reason being in my few hours there I saw so much segregation in the street and I noticed there were so many clubs and societies that were along religious and cultural lines that it made it seem even more cold and divided. I'm of european and aisan background and had never seen that before.

I'm in London but I do feel that there are fewer opportunities for my son to mix with our geographical community (my community) because of the huge focus on faith schools in my borough. Not only am I fuming as my ds is denied so many opportunities in terms of schools, I worry for the future of this nation. We are a tiny little island packed with people with different views borne of different politics, different cultures etc and we cannot cope with this increase of division as frankly we don't have the space.

I'm so please that now ds can just rub along with whoever crosses his path and makes friends or not as he pleases - everyone is here at one the few community schools and I happened to be in the catchment for it. But a few years on we have the choice of him being baptised in a hurry or just being shipped out to miles away to the few community secondaries (that are not great) and not having any opportunities on his doorstep (his community) because his doorstep has schools that are happy to ship in people from other boroughs on faith grounds and push him out.

I don't recognise what people tout as multicultural britain these days. I grew up in a very different environment. To me multicultural now is to offer ways out of understanding your neighbours and those of us who have a truly multi heritage background in terms of race,culture and faith, or those who don't have a faith at all, at all are pushed out.

It worries me quite a bit.

Sorry for the long post which doesn't offer much

Just one other thing, we have Indian neighbours and their friends are exclusively Indian. They speak to us in a friendly way but the divide is really clear. They don't trust us, I think that's the thing.

Often it is if they want something doing, like me to find them something on ebay, or to borrow my transport, or whatever - then they will approach me and if I can help I will do so. But I don't think they would offer to help me with anything as they seem to see themselves as needing assistance, being unfamiliar with British things, and me as being priviledged/advantaged over them because I grew up here, though I have far fewer friends than they do, far far less support, and as a single parent enough to do without picking up their rubbish, giving them lifts because the police got them for not having a UK license, finding stuff on the computer for them etc etc.

I kind of find their attitude uncomfortable, as though I am always the enemy even though they take far more than they give (from me, I don't mean from society).

It makes me sad. I guess that's what it must be like living somewhere you weren't born? I dunno.

What an amazing documentary. I thought Rashid was fantastic, a total credit and it was fab to see the positive influence he had on that lad's life.

So where can I see this documentary?

Horrified at the poster who says in her village they refer to everyone asian or who looks asian as a 'really horrible word'.

some asians are just racist, and not just to white/black people but to other asian people.

it stems partly from colonialisation and partition.

and largely from bigotry and ignorance and denial of the fact they are racist.

I think a lot of asians have family friends and stuff they socialise with out of school, but personally i have met the majority of my friends at the school gates.

A lot of them tend to be muslim too, as i am able to invite them to one of the sporadic islamic circles we hold during nursery time on the next road to nursery after we drop of kids, which enables us to form a closer relationship, but without expectation of having to get on, or be friends, as if we dont click it is not awkward as there are other people and a discussion topic etc, which is a bit different from going to coffee where it can be a bit strained and awkward with cultural and language barriers (even between differnt nationalities of same religion).

In face I have been a lot more successful at inviting sisters to circles then going on to form a relationship, then in my efforts to try and organise coffee/ lunch while kids are at nursery!

Holly, are you Muslim? for me it would be interesting to know your first perceptions of Rashid, and how perceptions changed?

that is open queston btw, not just to Holly.

Firawla, wasnt it funny when the girl walked in at the end, and "that lad" goes "Mashallah" rofl. (it is sometimes used as cheesy chat up line to imply wow your fit kind of thing)

lol yeh!!
i thought the whole thing with rashid & damon was really good. rashid seems to have a good way with people masha allah.. apparently he is a quite wellknown daee in the area?
btw salam naila! you know who i am right? (if not then look at profile pics, kids are on there)

" But in Bradford the racism cuts both ways, Asians are opening racist against whites and blacks. It's a dreadful example of how not to organise a community. "

What "community"? What are you suggesting here?

No I'm not but I'm married to a (non-Muslim) British Asian, if that makes a difference. He faced a lot if racism as a child and is very protective in that regard over our children so it was particularly interesting to us. Did my perceptions of Rashid change? No not really (maybe when he was in the gym!) - I have worked with several very observant Muslim men, and without exception (although I hate making blanket statements) they were decent lads with good values. They were all from Lancashire though!

I dont know what to make of it really. We have decent integration where I live (although d is never invited to parties but I think thats the wheelchair) but trying to arrange things among fellow muslims is like herding cats. Coffeee morning, study circles, get togethers. All enthusiasm and then no-one comes.
But then its not that much different among my non-muslim friends.

But Im guessing areas with a big community of one culture where lots of people know eachother or are related have no real need of outside friends.

The community of Bradford.

omg, all this time and i had no idea firawla... lol
walaykum salaam

My parents came to this country from a country in Europe many many years ago and when I was young I definitely felt different to 'english' kids and was frequently told by my parents we were different. I was not allowed to go our with boys as a teenager or out with friends as they didn't want me to adopt 'English' ways. At school I was accepted by the Asian clusters as well as the White clusters of kids but they didn't hardly mix. Only a few of us who were from other cultures - Italian, Polish, Greek, Spanish etc, were able to flit happily between the two clusters. The majority of the Asians disliked the 'white' people and would slag them off, their way of life, their beliefs etc. The 'English' people came across - to me - as more distrusting and ignorant of the Asians than racist, although there were some terribly racist. From experience, the Asians do seem to segregate themselves a lot. Some of it because they feel they have to and a lot of it because they want to.

"I have personally experienced racism in Bradford as a white woman"

Yes, I have too when I lived there. I find it so disheartening because it shows just how much needs to be done to bring the different communities together. I thought the problem was just the white community needed to be more tolerant and more open to others. I hadn't realised until I lived there that there is a section of the asian community in Bradford that don't want to become integrated at all. I just hadn't expected that.

I dont think the desire to be with like minded peple is weird though. We all do it. I sought out English expats when I lived abroad. But when its too insular it leads to problems.
I was in Stamford Hill recently with a Jewish friend and she said the strict orthodox wont mix, wont go into gentile shops, let their kids mix. All the usual stuff. I dont know what the answer is. You cant FORCE people to mix.
Maybe it starts small with 'Hi' at the school gates?

I am so glad I live in area where people are really integrated.
I'm Muslim and have friends from all different backgrounds - Asian, European, South American, Eastern European, Kiwi etc there are so many nationalities at ds's school.
I often socialise with the mums from school.
We do coffee mornings and evenings out. The evenings are always meals and if anyone wants to drink it doesn't bother me.
They'll have my kids over for play dates and know to only offer vegetarian food or fish fingers. My kids do their Islamic ed on weekend mornings so they're free to do play dates and after school activities.
The one thing I have in common with all of the friends I have made are similar ideas of how we bring up our children and family and moral values. This usually transcends across most cultures.

I think its sad that this can't be replicated everywhere. It can never happen where people live in areas populated by only one race. There minds can never be opened and there attitudes can never be changed until they mix with others.

exexe - where on earth is it that you live? I live in London and I've seen a step change (for the worse) here. We are a mixed family and I find increasingly that we're not enough or one or another or whatever as now I have kids who have more of a mix than me.

Everything is way way too political.