To be really fucked off with the "make bradford british" q+a session?

[northcountrygirl]

I live in a town close to Bradford, that has the same levels of segregation. My children go to nusery/school in a village next to an "asian area" with about a quarter of the children being muslim, so all 3 of my children have a lot of muslim friends. My questions were completely ignored.

I totally agree that we need to integrate the communities more. My questions were (roughly - can't remember how I phrased it):

1. I live in a town close by and totally agree with Sabbiyah's comment on the need for cohesion. My children have a lot of muslim friends (my son's friends are nearly all muslim). The problem I find is that whilst the children integrate well at school there is absolutely NO integration outside of school. Party invitations and invitations to tea after school are declined (or more often than not completely ignored). Why do you think this is? Is it because of worries over Halal food not being served? Or something more deep seated?

1. (along the same lines) In my childrens' school the children themselves integrate very well up to about year 4. From year 5 onwards you can see the divide if you pass the school at playtimes. My own son was told by (some) of the white boys that they would only play with him if he fell out with his muslim friends. I feel that as the children start socialising out of school, the parents are not allowing the two cultures to mix. How do we, as parents, enable the children to socialise outside school?

I really feel the answers to these questions are important (to me at least). Last year all my sons friends were muslim (in year 5). He was getting upset as his sister was always having friends over for tea and sleepovers and also getting invited back, whilst he was constantly on his own. In the end I reluctantly had to tell him that in was unlikely his muslim friends would ever be coming for tea and maybe he should start playing with some of the non muslim children. Which he did.

NB - not being racist by referring to children as "white" or "muslim". The school they are at is bicultural rather than multicultural.

nailak - yours were interesting discussion points.

I feel the questions they chose to answer were really bland, which was a shame as they'd gone to the trouble of making a documentary to provoke a bit of a debate and discussion on something important and then started answering questions on bloody meals

I guess you can't force the issue, it just takes time and people meeting each other half way. It is a good start that the children are at school together rather than at separate faith schools. It seems that it is happening in some areas that the children are socialising outside of school.

Keep throwing those invites out, eventually time will move on, someone will take a chance.

The far side, Mohammed definitely did not represent an Islamic view point, we didn't see him pray or act like a Muslim, we didn't see Islam being implemented in a visible way in his household.

There are many hadiths describing the prophet Mohammed sewing and helping in house, standing up for his daughter etc,

I think it's possibly down to culture rather than religion

My kids have experienced the same sort of thing OP (we live on the edge of East London) and I do get the impression that many Asian (whether Muslim, Sikh or other) parents are happy for their kids to mix with mine inside school...but not outside.

WRT dinner and sleepovers, the other parent does have to have a lot of trust in the fact you understand what they can/can't eat and when they need to pray.

So I would say that's probably a large element also.

Thanks nailak - I know not all Muslim men are like that. Perhaps his behaviour was more a result of culture than religion?

There are plenty of chauvinists in my own white British culture too.

I was just responding to troisgarcons. Maybe I'm being presumptious but my son has said that some of his friends already knew who they were going to marry. They were all a bit incredulous as one of the (sorry I don't know the correct word) "fiancees" was just born and the other was 3 years old, so I just explained to my son that that's what some people do. And quite rightly (as I told him) as I also want to make sure that he also marries someone who will be nice to him - he's my PFB...

Also I have noticed that the father generally speaks english (with a yorkshire accent) but quite often the wife tends not to speak English so well, so I may well have jumped to the wrong conclusion on this one.

Thank you for your suggestion of the park. It was an interesting point you made about alcohol - although we obviously don't start necking the vodka at kids parties, there is fair mention of alcohol in other pre-school parents activities. So there maybe a misconception there.

georgethecat - it is a faith school

We have a lot of c of e schools in my lea where 0% of the children who attend are christian. My own included...

I see - my bad, a whole lot of assumpting going on.

theFarSide, I live in a small town in the midlands. It's very diverse and truly multicultural, in that there are lots of different ethnic groups represented here, and no group is particularly dominant. It probably helps that the school is very middle class and the parents tend to be quite well educated. But I genuinely feel that the children and parents all integrate well.

All of the kids here seem to have birthday parties, and there is no obvious pattern as to who gets invited to what - the kids just invite their closest friends. People usually make sure that there is stuff for all of the kids to eat, regardless of their dietary needs. And playdates are common among all the children. Everyone at our school just takes this for granted.

We are aware of the differences. DD's friend isn't allowed to go to the school disco for example, and if we take sweets into the class for a special occasion, we always ensure that they are halal. Also, many of the Muslim mothers wear hijabs, and they often stop and chat to each other as they know each other from the mosque etc. But they stop and chat to us too, we get together and go places with the kids. I genuinely don't feel any difference in interacting with any of them.

Worra - hadn't considered the praying, just the food. Maybe I'll suggest an outing instead - like to Lazerzone or something?

Still think the parents could bloody pick up the phone though. Although, to be fair, a lot of the mothers don't speak english so well. And knowing what my own husband is like maybe the fathers just can't be arsed.

In fact, maybe that's it? Rather than me looking for some deep seated reason for why the muslim parents won't allow their children to mix with mine. Maybe it's as simple as the fact, the dads just can't really be arsed...

georgethecat - it's a fair assumption to make! But in my LEA we have schools with "c of e" in the school name that are literally 100% muslim. Not sure why they still have the church attachment - maybe they're hoping to convert them...

Hmm that arranged marriages to a 3 year old is just weird, I have never heard of it, will ask! You are probably right, men think its woman's business and won't interact with other women, women aren't confident in English? A lot of time boys brought up here will marry back home, or it used to be like this. Now days most boys would prefer not to.

jinsei - your post gives me hope.

My village is also predominently middle class (myself excluded). It's not multicultural though. Where I live there are predominantly white middle class areas next to predominantly asian areas. And the two areas just don't mix - it's very like Bradford really.

We have traditionally been a "bicultural" town - of English/Pakastani mix - and maybe that's the difference. More recently we have seen some eastern european migration, but not much. Maybe just no-one else wants to live here...

Hmm, interesting northcountrygirl. I don't know if it makes a difference, but a lot of people here have moved into the town from other places. This is true of the white British population as well as other ethnic groups. Maybe that makes people a bit more open to mixing?

I think it's harder when there are two very distinct groups - there is a tendency for it to become a bit "us & them". Whereas that would be far too complicated where I am, so instead of having "us and them, and them and them and them", we just have "us" instead. Iyswim.

nailak - It sounds like I've made assumptions on the "marrying back home" - just assumed it was arranged as thought they'd not had the opportunity to meet. I'm honestly not being judgmental about this I do kind of see the benefits for an arranged marriage. I sometimes wish I could arrange my own childrens marriages (and I'm not being flippant when I say this).

Re the 3 yo - if you've never heard of this, it may well be that they've been winding my son up again. It wouldn't be the first time. Especially after "4 Lions".

Yes - that's is what it's like really jinsei.

It seems that areas get to a certain percentage of pakistani, then the whites all move out, and then it becomes 100%

I don't want it to be like this though. Your town sound better.

Rubber dingy rapids

But seriously did you watch those BBC 3 programmes about soul mates I forgot what it was called? Watch the Muslim one if you want to see reality of arranged marriages.

I will do - just sometimes think if my own parents had arranged my marriage they would have "chose better"

My mum would have chosen one of my earlier boyfriends (who I'll call Andrew - cos that was his name) who was intelligent, good looking and rich. Thus avoiding to the paranoid schizophrenic who tried to kill me, the controlling accountant, the second (yes really) paranoid schizophrenic who really screwed my head up, the eternal student who wanted a mother, the alcoholic in denial, etc etc

Do you remember the name of that programme cos can't find it?

Nailak the marriage programme was called 'Strictly souls mates'

The not RSVPing is plain old rude, it drives me wild that the Asian community appear to utterly ignore it. I always always always RSVP.

Regarding the not attending play dates, it could be a combination of the children attending mosque after school (I used to for a long time from the age of three). The fact that the mothers don't speak English & probably don't drive so are not able to take their child to the venue or make their dietary requirements (other possible needs) clear, or don't understand the invitation clearly.

As a child we never threw birthday parties, so my dad insisted we couldn't attend other peoples as it would be rude to accept then not reciprocate.

The arranged marriage at three thing, sounds to me like the kids have overheard the parents talking about how nice it would be for the children to pair off. In my Dd's class a few of the girls have announced they're marrying certain boys within their class when they grow up... The children are 8-9 & by & large the boys are unaware of their impending nuptials & have had not been consulted either. I'd take that with a pinch of salt. Having said that my Dd's are currently betrothed to my best friends Ds's it's been a longstanding -joke- arrangement between us since before I gave birth.

My son has a lot of Indian and Pakistani origin friends (Sikh and Mulsim) they never come here (think its a food issue) but he goes to their houses.

I think Mohammed was quite racist. His remark that British culture consisted of 'getting bladdered' is understandable given the job he does but it's just as stereotypical as some white people's view of muslims. You don't have to be a teetotaler to be ashamed of some of the scenes in many towns on Friday and Saturday evenings. It must be very worrying for people who go to great lengths to protect their daughter's honour.
Maybe if people like him on both sides made more of an effort to find out about the other culture there would be less racism.

Mohammed's reaction was ott but I can understand in a way why he reacted and left like that.

Even when that Maura has come to his house, she was critisising what they do - especially the gender aspect, why he doesn't help etc. At that time she was supposed to come and live his life, experience it.. not to judge. She may not have agreed but she seemed to be judging quite openly.
Further to that, when he is at her house she straight away has him washing up and setting the table etc! In a muslim household we would not make our guests do housework for us!!! especially for an asian man,it seems weird... as he is not used to it in his own home then he must be thinking i am a guest here and this is what she makes me do?? it doesn't fit in to hospitality so possibly he felt insulted?
then after that to start bringing his dd into it, what if she married a white man etc. there should be nothing wrong with marrying a white person at all! (i am a white muslim, my dh is asian muslim... not a problem) - however his dd is already married so from that angle is it not quite rude to ask what if she brought someone home, and just the suggestion of her even thinking to bring some random person home may be a total insult to him - the marriage was arranged and we dont do boyfriends so it could be taken quite offensively to even suggest what if she comes home with some guy- whether white or not. although not denying some muslims of the asian community do indeed have a problem with interracial marriages, some people even have a problem with marrying outside their wider family.. but just thinking there was a bit more too it with mohammed, she had been provoking him with a few things and he just had enough by the end?

As for the parties, i would let my dc go to non muslims parties, thats not a problem for me. I know my neice n nephews are allowed to go to parties too. I get the impression london is a lot more mixed than some places up north though, and if mums dont speak english that must be a major obsticle to it.

it is true some muslims dont want their children to have close friends that are non muslim, so perhaps thinking its ok to socialise in school but not out of school. the worry may be that when they get in the teenage years, the friends might be drinking, having boyfriends etc and so becomes a bad influence. i would worry if my dc had friends who do those things, so can understand that.. however i understand not every non muslim person is like that! but perhaps people with limited interaction with non muslim community may be more cautious, so this could be something to do with it. the thinking its fine at primary level but dont want to encourage too much incase there is a problem with these friendships at secondary level, because of different types of boundaries, influence etc?

Since a great deal of our so-called entertainment television seems to consist of celebrations of grossly bad behaviour, like for instance Geordie Shore, I'm not surprised a lot of immigrant communities are petrified of allowing their children to be involved. I'm petrified myself.