Should smokers and fat people be denied treatment on the NHS unless they make radical changes to their lifestyle?

[Mrbojangles1]

My objection is not that people smoke or are fat people should do whatever makes them happy as long as they are legal and not inflicting their bad habits on children.

My thing is if these people are not refused treatment and they continue to smoke or over eat their medical condition is very likey to come back or counting thus treating a condition with out change is a waste of money.

Also my oh who works for nhs tells me giving somone who is fat anersetic (sp) is very dangerous the amount to knock them out can often be lethal

Also I think we should be helping people take ownership of their own health

Personally I wouldnt want some one who wouldn't commit to stop somking to have a new heart.

What do you all think
Ps this is not about the wrongs or rights of somking or being aft but about should we expect people to commit to change in order to take up the precious time of surgeons, nurses, doctors and Nhs staff?

OP.

It's LOSE weight.

HTH, but you are still being a tit.

Thats not fat then is it!

Watch the Horizon programme, its enlightening.

Smokers and fat people die much younger, so really, all in all they are less of a "burden" on the NHS than those blimming healthy old age pesnsioners who keep on needing new hips for their Nordic Walking, and live until they are 100, needing care along the way

LentillyFart

if the NHS provide help for people that need to lose weight then it should be through providing emotional support not just handing people a list of foods they shouldn't eat -which is the current reality

you are missing my point though -it's easy to say you are going to change -it's much harder to actually do it
anyone asked if they are going to stop drinking if they get a liver transplant says they are -many don't -how do you tell who is going to be able to make the change?

Thank you purpleromancesco
Kittens are the way forward on MN at the moment.
Thetokengirl totally brilliant post, I cannot see how anyone could argue with that.
but they will.

What about people who take up dangerous sports and injure themselves. Should they be denied treatment?

Al0uise - um, yes it is, anything over 30-32% (depends on which scales you read) is considered overfat.

I did see the Horizon thing, but I try not to do excessive cardio as it affects my lifting. And anyhow - they never defined "fit" in it/ What does "fit" mean? Cardio health? Weight? Fat %? Ability to run a marathon?! It's a totally subjective term, as is "fat".

And yes, I am fat - I'm not ashamed of it

crystalglasses but why would you be denied treatment

We are talking about people for whom having a op due to their weight would be dangerous unless they lost some weight and for those if they don't lose weight the treatment they recive might in the end prove unless if they don't improve their weight

For instance ivf is unless if your to far overweight so what would be the point of somone being offered it unless they were prepared to do their part and lose some weight

You could alter your "fatness" through diet though. 1800 calories is on the high side for a woman of your height. I definitely think that being on the shorter side can be a disadvantage though.

Disclaimer: I don't really like Calories, i don't believe that all calories are equal nor are they processed by the body in the same way.

And no i couldn't bench press any where near that amount and i expect your bone density is far superior to mine.

"Also my oh who works for nhs tells me giving somone who is fat anersetic (sp) is very dangerous the amount to knock them out can often be lethal"

Surely that would make you happy?less fat people, less burden on the resources. £££££££££££££

not that you actually asked, but YABU. It is far more complex than that and impossible to administer

Why would that make me happy to be honest I not very slim my self

workshy Yes, sometimes people are bedbound because they are too fat. They have been shown on television sometimes.

I was in a restaurant for lunch in Oxford the other day. There was plenty of room between tables but an extremely fat man walked past our table and his shirt overhung our table brushing off the menu, my spectacles and a napkin. The shirt also overhung the table on the other side of the aisle. There was at least 4ft between the tables. He was the fattest person I have ever seen.

The NHS has had to buy special operating theatre beds and trolleys and the ambulance services have had to buy carrying equipment so that fat people can be accommodated. Frankly, I think they ought to pay something towards them.

No of course not, what a terrible idea.

And what thetokengirl said

You can't treat some things which are "self inflicted" but not others on the basis of a subjective morality code.

RuleBritannia

people bedbound beacuse they are fat??? -well I never!!!

I know they are but people don't wake up one day and think

'I know, I'll eat so many pies and cakes that I get to 40 stone and can barely move and can't even wipe my own arse! -what a good idea that seems!'

people get that obese usually due to deep seated emotional issues -not because they are either lazy or greedy

I worked in an A&E dept for several years. The majority of our 'visitors' could be 'held responsible' to some degree for their visit.

E.g.

RTAs - the majority are avoidable - less speed, more care and attention etc etc. Should we wait for the police report to establish whose fault it was - if anybodys - and then only treat the innocent ?

DIYs - again the majority are avoidable - following safety precautions, not taking on a job or using a power tool that is outside our ability/knowledge etc.
Again should we wait for the HSE report and only treat those whose power drill was found to be faulty and ran amok as a result ?

It's a slippery slope imo and would be impossible to implement fairly.
Where do you draw the line ?

But what you describe in A&E are accidents. What the OP is asking about is repeated, sustained, self-aware behaviour.

I'm not certain how one can make people responsible for their own health but I'll admit that I think money could be better spent on NICU equipment than operating tables for very obese people. As I've said, I don't subscribe to treating people differently at the point of service.

Alright. I give up. What's up with MN today? Is there an invasion I have not been made aware of? Have I missed a memo about arsehole's week or something?

there really is an overflow of idiots on MN at the minute why all these deliberately inflammatory OPs?

i presume by your OP that you are the poster-person for non-addicted, healthy living, slim, perfect humanity? if not then shut the F up!

i am overweight, i have medical issues that have made me that way and hold me in a perpetually fat state. i was of a normal weight until i had a major health shift. My weight issues are not because i am lazy and it is INCREDIBLY difficult to shift even 1lb for me. why would i not be enabled access to healthcare that i PAY TAX to recieve? i dont smoke but my mother did when she was diagnosed with stage 2/3 breast cancer. hers was an eostrogen fed cancer and her consultant said if she hadnt smoked, her cancer would most certainly have been more advanced and she would not be here now! so simply because she smoked and, incidentally at that time she was also 2 stone or so overweight, she in your eyes was not entitled to the treatment that saved her life? fuck off back to your perfect life and mind your fucking own business.

(i rarely get sweary on threads unless in an ironic kind of way but...)

It's always aresholes week! And being lovely week/being funny week/being supportive week/being creative week. It's MN.

I don't really see why the OP shouldn't discuss this, seems like a relevant contemporary ethics thread. OK, so it's going to hit nerves, etc, but it is still a valid discussion.

Smokers pay excessive taxes on cigarettes thus already funding their NHS treatment in fact they more than fund any lifetime treatment they get.

Fat people however cannot be treated in some cases because it is too dangerous to operate on a fat person.

There is no doubt that smokers DO pay for themselves and any treatment (and plenty of other people's besides). I'm not sure if this secures their place on the lung transplant list or not, though, or whether it should.

What about people who keep fit by running or going to the gym? Can they have treatment for knee injuries sustained whilst keeping fit in their chosen manner?
People who choose to ride bikes and get hit by a car?
Women who get pg even if they know they might need a cs or treatment for pg related conditions?
Violinists who get RSI in their elbows?)

like others have said, alot of obesity in the extreme is caused by emotional/mental helth issues. fat doesnt always equal greedy/lazy the same as slim doesnt always equal healthy.

so does it also mean that the grossly underweight wouldnt get treatment? anorexia/bulemia is a medically recognised AND sympathised issue...though self inflicted and just as damaging as being grossly overweight...no? perhaps you should think about all sides of the story before being so judgemental.