Should smokers and fat people be denied treatment on the NHS unless they make radical changes to their lifestyle?

[Mrbojangles1]

My objection is not that people smoke or are fat people should do whatever makes them happy as long as they are legal and not inflicting their bad habits on children.

My thing is if these people are not refused treatment and they continue to smoke or over eat their medical condition is very likey to come back or counting thus treating a condition with out change is a waste of money.

Also my oh who works for nhs tells me giving somone who is fat anersetic (sp) is very dangerous the amount to knock them out can often be lethal

Also I think we should be helping people take ownership of their own health

Personally I wouldnt want some one who wouldn't commit to stop somking to have a new heart.

What do you all think
Ps this is not about the wrongs or rights of somking or being aft but about should we expect people to commit to change in order to take up the precious time of surgeons, nurses, doctors and Nhs staff?

Where would you draw the line then op? Im currently about 2 stone too heavy cos i had my 5th baby a year ago and had severe spd so was unable to exercise and been struggling since.Should i be denied treatment or should it only be really obese people? And as for the smokers what shall we do with the people dying of lung cancer,heart disease or emphisema? Let them die in their houses whist their family watch?
Do feck off.

I don't hate fat people, I'm fairly fat myself! I don't actually hate anyone.

I stand by what I said. If anyone neglects themselves to the point they are unable to take themselves to the toilet or cook themselves a meal then supplying someone/facilities to do it for them is just facilitating them to carry on with the self neglect.

I'm fat, yeah. It's temporary though, I've got inflammatory joint disease, some sort kidney disease in one kidney and mental health problems (who wouldn't have if they lived with chronic pain for years). I've gone from a fairly active lifestyle to being mobility challenged, and I've piled on a lot of weight.

Once my health problems have been sorted so that I can walk without pain, I intend on being as active as I can be to get the weight off again, but until that time I need regular appointments with the rheumatologist, the physiotherapist, the podiatrist, the urologist, the psychiatrist, pain management clinic and my GP, I have repeat prescriptions for five different medications, and I am unable to work to fund any of this due to my health.

None of my problems have come about because of my weight, although losing weight would make them easier to deal with, it's also quite hard at the moment while I am getting used to steroids, antidepressants, drug modifying anti-rheumatics, and pain killers galore, and waiting for mobility devices and adaptions around the house. I focus on healthy lifestyle, take my supplements that help, which I pay for, buy in temporary joint supports and home care items that help me to cope, and do as much as I can afford to, but without the NHS I would be absolutely buggered.

I'd hate to lose it because people think being overweight is naturally only something that happens to greedy, lazy people.

Yabu

What about people who have accidents doing dangerous activities? Want to refuse treatment for them?

My DH broke his leg when out running - he's fit and healthy but all activities carry risk.

Fiendishlie my uncle lost his foot due to having diabetes type 2 he cut his foot it wouldnt heal, then got infected ,he was 25 stone give or take

He died last year under just keep getting infections they felt due to his size it was more risky to operate than give powerful antibiotics but the infection over took him

For the last 6 years he slept down stairs

So, the NHS shouldn't treat fat people and smokers.
Please don't forget
Drinkers - that's Saturday night in A&E sorted
Sports people - that's Saturday and Sunday afternoon in A&E sorted
Most cancer patients, as most cancers have links with something
Travellers who come back with D&V, etc
Pregnant women, because surely they bring that on themselves
Old people for just living too long
Clumsy people for, er, being clumsy

If you look into it hard enough, lots of health issues have aspects that are affected by the way the person lives.
As someone who works in the NHS, I don't think we should treat any of them and I can have an easy life

Sigh.

I am fat - 11st 10lbs, 5'2", I wear a size 14/16.

I go to the gym 5 times a week - 3 sessions of weightlifting, two of cardio/conditioning.

I eat around 1800 kcals a day. I've been doing this for about 3 years. I'm not getting skinny; however, I'm really really bloody fit (bet I'm fitter than many slim people). Blood pressure normal, resting heartrate excellent.

However, I am fat, can't deny it.

What exactly about my oh-so-hedonistic, greedy and disgusting lifestyle means I shouldn't get treatment on the NHS? BTW, I'm a 40% tax payer, I pay my way.

Ah, next stop Eugenics. Lovely society we live in these days.

Now I'm speechless, Mrbojangles.

Really though smokers provide the government with around £11 Billion a year ( based on 2010-2011 figures) and cost the NHS between £2.5 and £5 billion ( depending on source) So to be fair they are sort of paying for their own care.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

coffee You have just given me a good reason never to diet or enter a gym again and you dont sound fat btw.

nillsnoo thank you for that I had no clue , but in terms of transplants it's not really about money there simply is only so many to go round

People with addictions - whether that is to alcohol, drugs, tobacco or food are often using/misusing that substance to "self medicate" mh issues caused by crap childhoods or physical, sexual or psychological abuse.

Usually the CAUSE of someone self medicating like this wouldn't be evident (for example, most victims of child sexual abuse/adult rape do not report it to the authorities) - so who would you suggest "judges" who is worthy of treatment OP?

Mrbojangles1

you haven't actually answered my question as to how long people need to prove they have improved their lifestyle before you play god and allow them a transplant

and what happens if they start smoking again (many smokers lapse) are you going to take the organ back off them?

OP, everyone is going nuts at you but, actually, you've posed a fair question in a society with limited resources. To what extent are people responsible for their own health and where does society's responsibilty end (given that there are many ways of spending the money we have)?

I think if their are procedures available on the NHS then we must make them available to all, however frustrating that is. Organ donation is slightly different, though, as this is something we opt into, and I'm not sure whether donors shouldn't be allowed to say 'my liver isn't for an alcoholic'/'my heart isn't for an obese smoker' etc.

I think that its a debate worth having.

This afternoon i had a health check at my NHS doctors surgery. Im 42 years old, 5ft 5, i weigh 10.5 stone, i havn't smoked for ten years, i drink one bottle of wine a week and have the occasional blow out.

My risk for developing cardio vascular disease within the next ten years is 1%. Which apparently is bloody marvellous. The aim is for under 20%, under 10% is considered good.

My cholesterol ratio and bp were good too.

I dont deprive myself but i avoid simple carbs. I don't exercise maniacally (I walk the dog 5 days a week) and I am apparently in excellent health yet i havnt been in a gym in 6 years, i get a cold once a year.

So i really don't see that its difficult. You don't need to deprive yourself or knock yourself out in a gym but abusing yourself regularly is stupid.

mrbojangles1 - yes of course, I was just referring to the first part of the post which is regarding money.

I personally like to keep quite healthy myself, but I always have a little chuckle to myself when I see people moan about how much smokers cost the NHS when the Tax they pay to the government each year is huge, and could be looked upon as contributing to non smokers care too.

ledkr I am though. In BMI perms, I'm obese, in body fat % terms I'm overfat.

"Obese" isn't a subjective term - it's a medical term. Until the BMA decides that the definition of obese is "Because that guy over there reckons you are" then I'm obese!

To be honest, I think of fat as just another descriptor - I'm also blue-eyed, brown-haired and have size 4 feet.

If you do exercise lots and are overweight the Horizon programme on exercise is well worth watching. I think its still on iplayer.

workshy how many transplants can some one get who won't make a change?

To be honest I feel people who won't make a change should be on a transplant list but they should be way down the list from people who would make a change.

In terms of weight I think if it's more dangerous to carry out a opration due to your weight than it will be for you not to have it then I guess we have to trust the doctors also I don't think we want to put staff in situations were they have to give people so much medication due to their weight they end up killing then

If the nhs are asking you to loose weight for a op it's fine but they should provide support (which they already do)

yeah but then you enter a bureaucratic nightmare - how long is someone not drinking before they're not an alcoholic - who tests their blood every week etc, who does the paperwork etc .. same with being obese -same with almost any similar type of thing.. what about people doing sports - not dangerous sports just sports - sports
injuries wouldn't arise if they'd stayed at home so don't treat them either?/

Also how can you prove obesity isn't due to "laziness" "lack of responsibility", similarly for alcholism - if its addiction then is that a disease ? If so then why deny treatment
Am thinking you're not moving too far from wondering which people

Coffeeslave - Have you had your body fat percentage analysed using calipers? It gives a truer reading.

Al0uise - you "don't see that it's that difficult" - but again that's for you. As I say above, I work out loads, and am fat.

I could say "I don't see that it's that difficult to deadlift 100kg+" but that's for me (it's not hard at all, honest!)

Al0uise - yep, 35.1% last time it was checked.