To think Uni students are a right moaning pita compared to when I went

[ohtobemoanproof]

Im a lecturer.

When I went to University-we went to the lectures, took notes from the board or overheads, went home, studied, did the exams etc, got our marks whenever they were ready and went away. No bothering the lecturers ( ever), no having their emails and demanding appointments, no arguing the toss over coursework marks, no moaning and complaining.

Now, I feel almost "bullied" by some of the students (not high fee payers, in fact some are on a bursary). They constantly moan (about everything, not just me in case anyone suggests its my module leadership in question), are always at the door, send email critiques about the quality of highly appraised visiting expert speakers, threaten to sue if coursework is returned a day later than you suggest it will be back, blame the lecturer if they get lower marks than expected, demand formal public apologies if they dont receive central messages about "one off" timetable changes, bitch if lecture notes aren't on module spaces a week before the lecture is held...it goes on. Bloody nightmare.

Aibu to think this is a new breed and we just weren't like that "in my day".

sniffs and has some more gin

I read a complaint from an ex student who said he had received little support from his uni and ended up dropping out. Instead he went into the armed services officer training and praised the structured training given there, comparing it to his negative uni experience. Of course unis should be providing what itsaid it is going to provide e.g. lectures; but the whole point of uni is that students should be independent learners.

I agree Lesley that a lot of uni should be independent learning. And I think for the good students it is. But at the same time, I would really resent paying the current fees for essentially teaching myself. I can see exactly why the students think they are buying their degree.

RealLife, I realise your post was slightly tongue in cheek but at the same time I think students should feel able to come and talk to lecturers. Much better than them all being too scared and in awe to ask anything. Any ones that turn up expecting to be spoon fed, you can tell them how it is and do them a favour as well.

Your post is a little generalised. While I'm sure there were plenty of independent and hardworking students "in your day", don't doubt that there would have been a good handle of others who weren't like that. Similar story now - I agree that too many students attend university who aren't capable (Universities are institution which work wonderfully for some young people, but others seem to be wrongly encouraged to apply) yet I'm quite certain you meet many young people who are model students.

To me, some of the experiences you mention don't contribute to the 'bloody nightmare' you describe. While I agree that the extreme cases (blaming the lecturer for low marks; threatening to sue) are ridiculous, have you properly considered some of your students' other actions? You imply that your pupils are persistently wanting your attention, turning to you to inquire/whinge/complain/have a general chat. Probably annoying, yes, and perhaps seen as a lack of independence - but at the end of the day, is it a bad thing? Surely this shows you that your students really care about their education. Your post reads very negatively, which is understanding as you're complaining, but try and consider it differently.

Asking questions demonstrates a thirst for knowledge, so you've clearly inspired your students, and they obviously feel very comfortable around you. Perhaps a little too comfortable, which you may feel the need to rectify in some way, but the other extreme, which you describe ("no bothering the lecturers (ever)") doesn't provide the perfect education either. I had a lecturer who seemed so untouchable, we were all downright scared of her, and she wasn't particularly involved in our education, except for the set lectures. There were quite a few gaps in our knowledge because of this, and while the majority of us did plenty of independent study, there's only so much one can learn that way. I suppose, even in higher education, the role of teacher/lecturer is more significant than we consider, and goes futher than 'the classroom'.

Just keep your spirits up by reminding yourself what an incredible thing you're doing for future generations and keeping a bottle of gin close by, and if any of the little buggers do get too big for their boots, complete your teacherly duties, and enlighten your students, by introducing them to the wonderful art of telling others to sod off.

Having one DD at uni and another about to go, we have travelled the length and breadth of England attending uni open days.

The day includes talks given by the department. In every single one I and DDs have attended the lecturer has made a big thing about the fact your Tutor is available to you throught the week for anything related to the course/module. In fact we have been to several where the point has been made that the Tutors actually enjoy this student interaction.

OP, maybe you need to be present at these open days so you can tell the students exactly what your expectations are. ie To piss off and leave you alone

Belle - No not all students were independent and hard working. But that meant either they got themselves together at a later stage and managed to cram and pass or they dropped out.

But Lesley, surely that's (generally) the same story now?

MrsMusic- but A levels require a lot of handholding due to their very restrictive and narrow nature....can't speak for Mathsy type subjects, but there's a hell of a lot of jumping through the hoops when it comes to Arts subjects and if you get it on the first go that's just a coincidence. V. hard to know which boxes to tick in the first place- that's where running to the teacher comes in. I mean, I really like my school, but it's more being handed opinions to memorise and half hearted 'class debates' (where we read the opinions off a sheet in turns)....very little original thought needed to get an A in the end, but it's not like they're so straightforward and easy either. Teachers have to teach to the test if they want to get their quotas of A/A* grades. Horribly prescriptive but the mark schemes are so ambiguous that you either get it or you don't (English Lit is prime example).

How can we expect to have our sense of independence honed when we have to do these kinds of exams, and we're not taught things like basic grammar way back in primary school for example....you get held back a lot. I sometimes feel like this cannot possibly be happening by accident otherwise there'd be a huge outcry, someone must want to be having us dumbed down on purpose.

No its not. I was when I first heard students got to put an essay in, get hints on how to improve it and resubmit it. We had to submit and find out wherewe went wrong, then put this into practice for the next essay. It is honestly different.

And taking quirrelquarrels point, I am notblaming the students. Just saying that yes it is different now.

My students are certainly not allowed to do that Lesley. That is a bit !

A year after graduating I tried to apply for a graduate medicine degree, never managed to get a reference out of anyone at the university. I would have been better off if my learning hadn't been quite so independent

2 degrees, one started in 1988, one in 2007. Very diff experience in every way, but would certainly agree with the OP. I have to say one fellow student appeared to email every lecturer after every lecture for four years and complained constantly about their increasingly shirty and brief responses... without considering that the same lecturers would be providing references. I don't think that student has had an interview for a job yet.

Second time around I was very one-up about taking all my own notes as I'd done the first time, and not even printing off the slides... until the time when I actually compared my own notes to the slides and found that I'd written an awful lot of mistakes in them. That would explain why I found so much of my first degree so confusing especially as I was usually half asleep from too much sport. It made a lot more sense to write loads of notes around the slides - at least I knew the basics were there.

Most of our lecturers used the sane notes year in, year out. They weren't posted in advance so we'd take notes during lectures. I'd literally write everything down so I'd fill 5 sides per lecture. We had one particular man who's door was always open and who was a godsend in the final year. He gave us so much time for his and other courses, as one particular lecturer was shit wasn't prepared to help us. I dud Maths btw, so background reading wasn't very helpful!

we have travelled the length and breadth of England attending uni open days.

Not a criticism but an observation. When I applied to university first time round in the mid-90s. No one turned up with their parents - bar one girl at Lancaster who we all sniggered about what a wet blanket she was - but now the vast majority of students rock up with their parents in tow.

This is probably another sign that students and their parents are thinking of themselves as consumers.

Totally with composhat on that comment above.
I am oft amused by people who align themselves with HOD's whether it be in complaints procedures or in believing the marketing bumf laid out in open days.
These people lie through their teeth and are usually the ones who have ultimately been responsible for the problems.
We had to sit through some absolutely horrendous and bare faced lies at our open day last year. One was quite a dangerous one. It all about bums on seats.
We were recently told to ignore our final year students in order to develop things for the incoming students who will be paying the £9K. We were told that the new students should be getting a rolls royce service while the departing students "a bike with a broken wheel".

I did an UG degree in 1999-2001.

The degree class had 30 on the course, a mix of A-level students and Access Course mature students. I was an A-level student, but my group of friends were all mature students (I never did the 'reckless teenager' thing).

We swallowed a lot of the disorganisation of the course. But to get to University, I travelled to the village 8 miles away from my home (with no car) to catch a train to connect with the mainline train for a half-an-hour journey on that train, to get to a city 30 miles away from home. Then I walked from the centre of the city to the outskirts (a 25 minute brisk walk).

I used to set off at 06.30 for a 09.00 start (because the early train got me to Uni early, but the later train got me there with only 3 minutes to spare).

When I had done that 4 times in quick succession to find a scrawled felt-tip note on a sheet of A4 paper, taped lop-sided to the door, simply stating 'Lecture Cancelled' I saw red. I wasn't alone. Some students had to pay for childcare, etc.

We called a meeting with the staff, and reminded them that we paid their wages and if they didn't get a grip of it, we'd start making official complaints.

I remember another lecturer, who was lecturing on philosophy and started hypnotising the students!!! I didn't co-operate, and made a right old stink. Some of the students (who had vulnerable backgrounds, DV, etc.) were really traumatised. The whole debacle went on for ages.

Then there was the Politics lecturer who decided to tell everyone that if they didn't pass the essay part of a certain course module, they would fail the whole thing, even if their marks on the presentation were enough to pass the whole module when aggregated. We challenged it, he said 'my module, my rules'. I then showed him the course regulations which stated clearly that all marks were aggregated and a student would only fail if their aggregate score for a module was below 40%.

The lecturer in that case was spitting mad and raging about how he should be able to teach as he saw fit. He claimed that he was going to get it changed...who knows if he did?

There was also the lecturer who was quite an authority on feminist matters. I did an essay on DV towards men. She slated it in the comments section. Couldn't cope with a student pointing out that men also have DV against them. She tried her hardest to penalise me, yet still had to give me 63% for the essay because it contained sound arguments with good referencing.

I enjoyed my course. I don't know if our lecturers enjoyed it so much. I think they had been used to young undergrads who didn't care less what happened, and the balance was tipped in our year towards people who very much did care.

QED

I encourage my students to keep in touch by email and question anything that seems wrong. If we've said Open Door in the brochure, then Open Door it is. And I like students who notice when I'm talking through my hat: it shows they're awake. I accidentally sent out the wrong page references the other week and not a single soul had the nerve (or the interest?) to query this, though they must have noticed it was wrong. I told them never to do this again! After I had apologised profusely, of course.

As far as myself and my colleagues are concerned, the bumph about tutor accessibility/pastoral support/feedback procedures is not lies but part of our job description: this is what we are expected to provide and if we can't then we shouldn't be doing this job.

One of the most important tasks is explaining to the students how independent learning is supposed to work and why it benefits them more in the long run than a hand-hold approach.

And, not least, explaining how independent learning at university is different from just sitting at home reading books. If they don't feel there is a difference, then clearly they won't want to pay- I wouldn't either. As I see it, clarity about expectations is the key.

Im sorry but I am not qualified in pastoral care, I'm a scientist. Its the part of my job I hate the most.

Dont get me wrong, I like tutorials and I like seesing students for feedback and discussion but really, I have no interest or power when it comes to your finances, finding a pt job and if your boyfriend has IBS.

Isn't it just about being a human being, laptopdancer? Listening with a kindly ear and then pointing the student in the direction of the right professional support. The same thing that you would do for any neighbour or friend or relative who needed it?

At a professional level, imo, it is mainly about having a well organised set of guidelines. Which I am thankful to say my university has. I don't have any training, but I know the people who do and I can show my students how ton access support very quickly.

Yes but the students are misled into thinking we can actually help when we cant. its a role I hate because I feel useless and when students arrive with their personal stuff (on direction from the powers that be), they feel let down and then the feelings of disgruntleness and the coplains begin.
This is not my role. They are not my friends, I am their lecturer. As much as I like and respect them.

complaints, sorry

laptopdancer I assume you're not a university lecturer at a normal university then, or you're just not qualified to be a university lecturer?

Cambridge Uni's lecturer job description

Pastoral care is part of a university lecturers role, if you just want to be a scientist, then there are probably other places to go.

What training do we get to be pastoral carers?