To think it would be hard for someone from an ordinary background to not feel a bit left out in at a top flight uni?

[Hammy02]

I just can't see how people can have even similar experiences at such places if they are from massively different backgrounds. Do people tend to stick with people from the same backgrounds as each other? Even in my 6th form, those from wealthy backgrounds hung around together as they generally did more expensive things at the weekend than everyone else. Eg, holidays abroad half a dozen times a year while the rest of us had Saturday jobs.

clothes, a lot of teaching at all universities is done by post grads.

IME the difference is that at Oxbridge, they are slightly less likely to have received any training prior to teaching (not saying this is particularly awful given the tutorial system, though).

Why shouldn't they communicate such fears, Rinkan? Different people have different experiences and different strengths. Just because you enjoyed your time at university, that doesn't mean that everybody else is going to have the same experience.

I think it is very patronising when people say that teachers and parents shouldn't point out the possible issues at certain universities. Why should students only be given a positive spin on these places? It is possibly three of the best years of their life, if they take a wide range of advice and choose the right university for them.

YAB entirely U and bringing a load of your own inverse snobbery to the table....one of the best things about the social mix at uni was meeting people and making friends from a huuuuuge range of backgrounds (everything from the ones who had never travelled outside their hometown to diplomats brats kids) - the common factor was our degree course, or an interest society, the background was entirely irrelevant. All that mattered was being interested & interesting....

18 years on, I can say that I made friends for life, who opened my horizons and encouraged me to step outside my existing boundaries and expectations.

So get over yourself OP.

JSQ, I have two degrees from different universities and I have never been taught by a postgrad.

If those fears are based on experience then fine, although they should ideally be balanced by other people's experiences (such as all the positive stories on this thread). However the OP has not suggested that she is basing her views on experience.

YABU. I was at Cambridge in the late 80s/early 90s, quite posh college. I am from a middle class/private school background (though my mother was a teacher at the private school so we only paid a fraction of the fees). I met my DH there, who went to a comprehensive in Reading.

One of my best friends at college was from a very working class background, single parent family, only person from her comprehensive in Lancashire ever to go to Cambridge. For a while she was going out with a titled old Etonian.

Yes, some people do stick with people from exactly the same background, but it is complete rubbish to say that anyone from an underprivileged background shouldn't go because they won't fit in - it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. But sadly lots of teachers do still have that view, and pass it on to exactly the bright children from underprivileged backgrounds who should be applying and putting the balance right.

So Rinkan, if you were advising a Northern teenager from an ordinary school, would you be sure to take other people's experiences into account, and make sure that teenager knew that some people from their background did have negative experiences at certain universities?

Ok, but I am a postgrad, and I teach, and I know off the top of my head about 30 other postgrads at a range of universities in the UK, and we would be up in arms if we didn't get to teach! It's completely normal for postgrads to teach undergrads at all universities. It was just luck (good or bad!) it didn't happen to you.

Some teenagers have negative experiences at all universities - they're teenagers. If we were to talk them through all the things that might possibly make them unhappy then they'd still be at home listening to the talk at Christmas.

I would not seek out people with negative experiences for balance, no, because I feel very strongly that my own experience was so positive as to be worth taking the risk. I would however expect any Northern teenager applying to Cambridge to be bright enough to do their own research, but would warn him/her against any opinions offered by anyone who had not actually been there.

DP, well yes, obviously, because teenagers who experience classism, racism and discrimination are a bunch of chippy fantasists. It is their own fault because they are teenagers and there couldn't possibly in any way be an issue at these institutions. In fact, they should be encouraged to go there, because it is good for people and part of their education to go somewhere they are going to be discriminated against; they should get used to real life and learn to put up with prejudice from others as early as possible.

YANBU to note that it's hard for ordinary people to fit in at top flight (I assume you mean Russell Group) universities. But YABU to think that should put any of those students off applying, or continuing their courses.

I come from a below average background which is what was 'normal' for me - free school meals, council estates, full loan entitlements, no holidays. I went to a Russell Group university and it was a real struggle to fit in, the things that I considered perfectly normal were suddenly things that only chavs or really poor folk did. I was from an ethnic minority as well so I was out of touch with normal English class traditions. I felt alienated even from the middle-England types who aren't what most MNers would call wealthy but just normal (we didn't even get to know the much richer types as they had very expensive hobbies and lots of them took drugs which I couldn't afford and wasn't interested in).

I found university a very socially isolating experience and my time there didn't run smoothly - I had to take time out as it affected my mental health so much. Academically I can see now that I was miles ahead of most of my peers. I'd gone to a very poorly-performing comp in inner London, not just a bog-standard one, from a family who spoke English as a second language and who'd never studied at HE level before, yet I'd got straight As in sciences. Taking my socio-economic background into account, this seems virtually impossible if you look at statistics compiled by the likes of the Sutton Trust. But the social experience made me lack confidence in my abilities and that had a huge impact on my progress.

I still think people of all backgrounds should be encouraged to apply to universities, but I think there should be far more support, not just in terms of grants and money, but perhaps peer support in linking students from the same background together. I didn't encounter anyone from my whole time at university who was anything like the people I'd grown up with and it would be a bit like finding needle in a haystack to find someone with that sort of profile in a top university now.

I went to a Russell group uni in 2000 and studied law. I am working class, born in a council house, state school etc, and probably have one of the strongest, unpopular accents there is!

I absolutely loved university life, had a mix of friends, did meet a few snobby types, but in the main everyone was lovely, accepting and tolerant.

We all used to shop at Netto and eat 9p noodles. I was the only one out of my social circle who had literally no financial support from back home, but it was never an issue.

There was much more snobbery and prejudice (of all types) at my state secondary than at university.

Butternuts, sorry you found it so hard, but do do you think you'd have found any University with a significant number of people from similar backgrounds to yours?

Well I'm smiling here because when I went to university (oxbridge) I don't think I met anyone from a background like mine!
Everyone seemed to have gone to a private school or grammar. They all seemed to have had very different life experiences to me.

ClothesOfSand Well, personally I think that's a bit of a shame. I'm from London and have close university friends from Manchester, Northern Ireland, Wales, Sheffield - I think it adds to the richness of the experience.

I didn't apply to unis like Cambridge tbh because I feared I would be isolated amongst much better off people. This was in the mid 80's when far less people went to uni.

I come from a very poor background - free school meals, very few people from school going to uni (never mind Russell Group ones), etc. I was astounded at the uni I did go to that people thought they were working class or poor just because they went to a state school - even though imo some of their backgrounds were pretty well off and middle class.

I made friends fine where I did go. But even there I met students who would make assumptions. For example, the students who laughed at another student when he said he had never been to a restaurant, or who made comments about the clothes some of the poorer students had.

Now much more people go to uni I suspect in lots of circles it is seen as more normal. But when I went I heard friends from schools parents say things like only posh people go to uni and why was I going. Or even people's parents wondering how I could afford to go and being astounded that at the time there was such a thing as a grant from the government.

Of course there is the internet now so it is much easier to find out stuff. But I had never heard the term Russell Group and tbh outside of Cambridge and Oxford I had no idea what were good universities. I didn't even have the money to visit the university I did end up going to beforehand.

I do still meet families and teenagers from very poor backgrounds who don't know a lot of this stuff - although it is easier to find out now. But I think sometimes people underestimate how valuable it is knowing what is a good uni for example, or similar stuff.

mumofthreekids - That is your idea of diverse backgrounds

No I didn't say that - I was talking specifically about the North / South issue mentioned by ClothesOfSand

lesley - I think that is very true about it being valuable to know what is a good uni. People underestimate how much this is 'common knowledge' IMO. Loads of people don't know and it's not necessarily their fault - they don't always know where to start looking, or how to separate good information from bad. My mate works in Oxford admissions office and has some shockers she can tell - teenagers or parents who've been told complete crap by people in positions of authority. It makes me really cross.

sorry mumofthreekids

Jericho - I was told nothing by my school about going to university, except that I had to complete an UCAS form. I actually didn't know at the time that you had to sit an entrance exam for cambridge and so if I have applied through UCAS I would have been too late.

I assumed Durham was a not very good university because it was in the north and the name sounded industrial to me [shame]

That sounds really shit.

My mum had a similar experience - she was v young in her year for some reason, and her school didn't do a third year sixth (which apparently used to be normal back in the day), and so she was 17 when she applied. She sweated over the application only to be told 'no, you're too young, we won't even consider you' - her school didn't know! A bit daunting I think.

I used to live near Durham and always felt really sorry for the students because it on such a steep hill to bike up!

Oops, sorryry, obviously I mean your school not knowing what to tell you sounds shit for you, I don't mean Durham sounds shit ...

lesley my experience sounds very similar.
I was pretty much the only one of my peers from the estate where we lived who stayed on at sixth form, never mind went to university.

When I got there I had never been abroad, or even to London. I had never been to the theatre or to a restaurant. I had never met anyone (outside my teachers) who had been to university. I had never met anyone (including my teachers) who had been to oxbridge.

My terms of reference were completely different from everyone around me.

MOTK, I would think that most people's experience of university was that they met people from a wide range of geographical locations and social backgrounds and had a lot of fun and made lasting friendships. But there clearly are people who go to certain universities and end up being friends with people who from the same kind of background, because of the informal social segregation there. I think that is a shame and would advise my child to avoid institutions with that kind of reputation.

I agree with posters saying that what is important is that students are given advice on which universities are good, and not assume that all students know that. Pupils should start with that knowledge and then take other factors into account - social mix, campus vs. city location, type of city, academic teaching style and so on. Different universities will suit different character types.