to ask if you think women should be imprisoned

[manicinsomniac]

NB - I'm not talking about murderers and child abusers etc, obviously those women pose a risk to society and need to be away from it.

But the majority?

I've started to get quite involved with prison volunteering, campaigning etc and have just read this on the women in prison website:

*Prison causes damage and disruption to the lives of vulnerable women, most of whom pose no risk to the public. Women have been and are marginalised within a criminal justice system designed by men for men.

Prison is often a very expensive way of making vulnerable women?s life situations much worse. Women are often incarcerated miles from their homes and families ? they lose their homes, their relationships with their children and their mental health in the process.

Better outcomes for women mean a reduced use of prison and an increased use of community alternatives. Prison does not work. The best way to cut women?s offending is to deal with its root causes. *

What do you think? Instinctively I agree with it but I don't know if I'm just being too idealistic and/or have just watched too many episodes of Bad Girls!

So WIBU to want to campaign against the imprisoning of vulnerable women? Or is it no different to imprisoning men?
Should I be equally bleeding heart about men?
Or do all these prisoners just deserve what's coming to them?!

I know there are a lot of vunerable prisoners in prison. I know there are a lot of people from dysfunctional families. etc. believe me. I have worked first hand with many of them, in one to one situations over periods of time. I am most definitely not niave over the types of people in prison.

However, there are also many vunerable people and people from dysfunctional families who manage not to end up in prisons as well.

A colleague of mine from my time at the prison worked in a women's prison. I know all the stuff about there too. Yes, women may have other issues to deal with and the proportion of vunerable people may be higher it doesn't mean that they shouldn't be dealt with by the courts.

FWIW - I did have clients who were inside for both rape and corporate fraud. You'll be pleased to know that there were women as well as men on the parole boards and Re-cat boards too, not just men deciding who can go out early or move down early.

SardineQueen

"Interesting how so many people are coming to the threads assuming that men and women receive comparable punishments for the same crimes."

interesting that no one has any stats to prove otherwise.

It used to be widely accepted that the courts should cast debtors into dungeons. It used to be perfectly legal to rape one's wife.

The courts are spectacularly ill-equipped to do anything but send taxpayers a massive bill for the task we have given to them because we are still inclined to indulge ourselves in the old eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth rubbish and the sort of morality that made the Victorian era such a jolly time for all sorts of people.

I would be all over the eye for an eye stuff, if it worked. The fact is that prison isn't a deterrent for the individual offender or society as a whole. It may be useful to just remove the person from society if that is what we consider safest. In the case of sex offenders who have a huge recidivism rate and no really reliable treatment options that is an option. I would argue that it is not just though.

I think the problem is that society has never really had a decent debate about what we want to do; prevent crime and thereby protect people; pure 'justice' (which would mean real eye for an eye stuff); punish for the offender's good; punish for our good; mete out revenge.

All the people who want to flay child rapists alive are missing the point of the Courts. We could just dispense with that and let the parents at them. The Courts are supposed to be doing our will. But we have not decided.

I would rather no non-violent offenders go to prison. Let's try decent MH services, addiction services, adult and child education and affordable housing. Once we've done that, we can talk.

A very thoughtful post MrsTerryPratchett. I agree we have sleepwalked into what we have now.

Thought-provoking piece in today's Independent

what manicinsomniac said

i am a bit biased, mainly down to the childcare/welfare issue, which also economically can double the cost too

i for one dont think that depressed shoplifting single mums necessarily need prision. and for their kids to go into temporary care, there has to be a better solution for this type of offense

but violence, lock em up

same goes to a single depressed ex care home 19 year old boy that shoplifts too. FWIW

Without doubt unless you sort out underlying reasons such as alcohol and drug addicition that fuel a very high % of crime, no punishment will stop repeat offending in the long-term.

If you sorted out underlying issues, addictions, MH, personality disorders, abuse, learning disabilities and the rest the prisons would be almost empty. Just a few greedy bankers and Tory Peers left.

Have a look at this.

I'm surprised to read on here that so many people aren't aware that women are typically treated more harshly with regard to sentencing than men are. I thought that was well known and often reported.

If you can face wading through this it might also give pause for thought.

No-one is saying that women should not be punished for their crimes but it does seem that they are more punished more harshly.

"Each year it is estimated that more than 17,700 children are separated from their mother by imprisonment. Just 5% of women prisoners? children remain in their own home once their mother has been sentenced.36 Only 9% of children whose mothers are in prison are cared for by their fathers in their mothers? absence...

...Imprisoning mothers for non-violent offences has a damaging impact on children and carries a cost to the state of more than £17 million over a ten-year period. The main social cost incurred by the children of imprisoned mothers ? and by the state in relation to these children ? results from the increased likelihood of their becoming ?NEET? (Not in Education, Employment or Training)...

...There are eight mother and baby units located within prisons and secure training centres in England providing accommodation for up to 75 women and
their babies at any one time. There is no automatic eligibility for a place within a mother and baby unit. Between April 2005 and July 2008, 283 children were born to women prisoners. This is a rate of almost two births a week in England and Wales. However, between April 2008 and June 2008, 49 women in prison gave birth, at a rate of nearly four a week. 23 births were to mothers aged 18 and 19..."

From BelleDame's first link.

Thank you very much for the other link too, BelleDame.

Great links but very sad reading.