to ask if you think women should be imprisoned

[manicinsomniac]

NB - I'm not talking about murderers and child abusers etc, obviously those women pose a risk to society and need to be away from it.

But the majority?

I've started to get quite involved with prison volunteering, campaigning etc and have just read this on the women in prison website:

*Prison causes damage and disruption to the lives of vulnerable women, most of whom pose no risk to the public. Women have been and are marginalised within a criminal justice system designed by men for men.

Prison is often a very expensive way of making vulnerable women?s life situations much worse. Women are often incarcerated miles from their homes and families ? they lose their homes, their relationships with their children and their mental health in the process.

Better outcomes for women mean a reduced use of prison and an increased use of community alternatives. Prison does not work. The best way to cut women?s offending is to deal with its root causes. *

What do you think? Instinctively I agree with it but I don't know if I'm just being too idealistic and/or have just watched too many episodes of Bad Girls!

So WIBU to want to campaign against the imprisoning of vulnerable women? Or is it no different to imprisoning men?
Should I be equally bleeding heart about men?
Or do all these prisoners just deserve what's coming to them?!

I think op sounds confused!

I think the OP is asking a good question, Lilac. Many of the posters are refusing the read the question carefully, probably due to not having very much experience of how the CJS actually works. And as I said upthread, it's really an eye-opener (whilst being on MN) to see how much women actually judge other women much more harshly than men judge each other.

My personal feeling is that non violent people should be dealt with in ways that do not include incarceration.

I also think that for people who are violent and pose a risk to the public, they should be locked up for the safety of the public until there is pretty much zero chance of reoffence. Thinking especially about sexual offences, and people who have committed multiple attacks. Ridiculous story about someone the other day who had to be released as his time was up even though everyone knew he was dangerous and they had to spend £££ having him followed at all times and watch him attack a few women so they could get him locked up again. Poeple like that shouldn't be released in the first place. Irt just seems ridiculous.

Also I think if the drugs policy was rethought then that would really help. Take the having to get money to get a fix out of the equation somehow and mugging, shoplifting, burglary, loads of stuff just stops. They have done it in another country (forget where) and the results were startling.

I am also a bit surprised that anyone would interpret gender equality as meaning that the same numbers of men and women need to be put in prison irrespective of how many are doing illegal stuff and what sort of crimes they are committing.

I think prison is an in appropriate punishment for most crimes where the offender poses no risk to society and I don't believe it rehabilitates people.

I don't think women should be treated any differently to men though

Is there anything to disprove the suggestion that people are less likely to re-offend after community sentencing than imprisonment because those going to prison are most likely to have already had one or more community sentences and re-offended anyway?

I strongly disagree that only violent and sexual crimes deserve incarceration btw.

Its as simple as if you can't do then time don't do the crime, just because the person is female makes no difference, break the law you should have to pay for it its not like the consequences are not known.

it isn't as simple as that Chic, tho' many people want to see it that way. Prison comes earlier, for less serious offenses ( usually non-violent) and the impact on women, and society is usaully much greater than imrisonment for men.

and one day I will learn to type properly.

Sometimes women are put in proson for their own safety, and that is most certainly not helpful.

Both men and womne are put in prison because of crimes they are committing because of other problems in their lives, mostly alcohol and drugs. It would be better spending money on having them rehabilitated than sticking them in prison for a short time where nothing gets done.

Going back to the OP men are also just as likely to lose their homes while in prison, that is an ongoing problem.

I also work in criminal justice.

I think putting women with children in prison has a disproportionate effect vs men, but I would not want women to be seen as having a "better deal" on the basis of gender. IMO too many minor offences lead to prison anyway.

I think there's huge scope to re-formulate the prison/justice s.ystem and that for many offenders alternative treatment/punishment is far more likely to benefit the criminal through rehabilitation and soceity through a reduced risk of re-offending.
However the notion that women shouldn't be imprisoned in a situation where a man would be is just nuts.

At the moment, women get a worse deal because of their gender. They are locked up for more minor crimes than men are.

The nature of the female prison population is very different from the nature of the male prison population. And the nature of offending is different too. The consequences of imprisonment for others is different too - women have caring responsibilities that male prisoners, in general, do not.

Equality does not mean treating everyone exactly the same. Otherwise you'd remove all steps and make everyone use wheelchair ramps even if they are not wheelchair users. Or make all men go for smear tests.

in prison majority inmates have experienced abuse,dysfunction
high rates mh distress and self harm
poor education
illiteracy rates are really high
substance misuse and alcohol form young age

prison is the outcome and indicator of poor socioeconomic and mental health societal problrms

I can see the OP's point. Female prisoners tend to be in jail because of fine defaults, prostitution, and so on. iirc, a higher percentage of female prisoners have been abused or have had chaotic childhoods than male prisoners - but many male prisoners have the same underlying problems.

Of course a female murderer, or any other violent offender, should be given the same sentence as a male murderer. But too many people who have learning disabilities or spent their childhood in care end up in prison. Which is bad in the first place, but particularly when they're in on short sentences which don't really give them the chance to be rehabilitated. It just moves them further away from the things that have been shown to help reduce re-offending, like good family relationships, work, stable housing and so on.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that there's a lot wrong in the prison system, and these problems affect both genders, but women guilty of low level crimes are particularly likely to have offended because of some sort of underlying problem that prison won't fix.

agree with all of that Panda. Unfortunately, the 'punishment' agenda of successive govts wins out because they like to appeal to the 'tough on crime' electorate, rather than effectively reducing re-offending. We struggle to get past a sort of emotional appeal of use of imprisonment without thinknig stuff through.

Since when does being female render us less capable of being responsible for our actions? We're not children, mentally ill or intellectually disabled as a result of our gender and shouldn't be treated as such.

If criminally inclined people have nothing to lose they will happily commit horrible offenses. Nobody should be protected from justice because they belong to a certain social demographic, whether that's race, gender, social class or parent status.

bobble, women are locked up for less serious crimes than men. Our gender is treated less fairly.

Am disappointed, but not surprised, to see so many ignorant and knee-jerk reactions to this issue. I'd recommend people read the following article about women's prisons from the Observer:
www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/feb/11/women-prisoners-suffering-mental-health?INTCMP=SRCH

It begins:

"Clive Chatterton is still haunted by the sights and sounds he remembers from his time as governor of Styal, one of 13 women's jails in England and Wales.

"There was the 20-year-old on remand for theft who repeatedly slashed her arms, then attempted to hang herself before setting fire to her body. When taken to hospital, she tried drinking a bottle of toxic disinfectant. Her last failed suicide bid involved swallowing a tampon and drinking water in the hope that the cotton would swell and obstruct her windpipe."

It goes on in that vein, with a description of many fragile and deeply vulnerable women - women who should be receiving help but who are sent to prison by judges because there is nowhere else for them to go.

Of course, Chatterton is simply someone who has spent three decades in the prison service and three years as governor of a woman's prison, so what could he possibly know compared to the people who post on Mumsnet?

" It goes on in that vein, with a description of many fragile and deeply vulnerable women people - women people who should be receiving help but who are sent to prison by judges because there is nowhere else for them to go. "

That makes more sense.

Women are actually, in generalm treated more leniently than men when being setenced

<a class="break-all" href="http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20110218135832/rds.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs/hors170.pdf" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">here

There are lots of vulnerable people in prison - gender is not relevant

its a pdf file cat - what does it say?

But then this is just a report commissioned by the Home Office using statisitcal analysis of data to make its conclusions, not a series of anecdotes published in the Observer so I must be making an ignorant and knee jerk reaction

Its very long but in a nutshell

"for virtually every type of offence, women are treated more leniently than men."

Women shoplifters were less likely than comparable males to receive
a prison sentence. They were also more likely to be sentenced to a
community penalty or to be discharged. However, the results should
not be interpreted as evidence of a general policy of leniency towards
women shoplifters. They suggest rather that sentencers may be
reluctant to fine a woman ? possibly because they may be penalising
her ch i l d ren rather than just hers e l f. This results in many wo m e n
receiving a disch a rge but others receiving community penalties
which are rather more severe than fines.

? Men and women stood an equal chance of going to prison for a first
violent offence. However among repeat offenders women were less
likely to receive a custodial sentence.

? Women fi rst offe n d e rs we re signifi c a n t ly less like ly than equiva l e n t
men to receive a prison sentence for a drug offence, but recidivists
were equally likely to receive a prison sentence