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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To not know if describing a person as coloured is politically incorrect.

646 replies

WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid · 25/02/2012 19:05

Was talking to a friend today and I mentioned I had met one of his colleagues (but I wasn't sure who). He said. Oh was she a coloured lady?

I said yes and we each knew who it was I had met. I was a bit taken aback as you don't really hear the word coloured used anymore. But it was probably the best way to describe her (kind of Mediterranean / Indian).

Was I being too politically correct for being Shock at the way he described her?

OP posts:
WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid · 29/02/2012 19:23

Original

I have read all the pages and there was a vast difference between your posts and the deleted post. No need to feel Blush

OP posts:
TheOriginalSteamingNit · 29/02/2012 19:24

Apparently you can't call lesbians inverts any more. Just when you get used to one word, they go and fucking change it decades and decades ago. I pointed out to dd 'that invert lady over there' and the Pc brigade leapt out from behind a tree and just changed it, there and then, on the spot!

seeker · 29/02/2012 20:26

Nd did you know that you have to say "person hole covers"? Oh, and they've banned Christmas, too.

seeker · 29/02/2012 20:28

TOSN - was it "invert" they were objecting to, or "lady"?

TheOriginalSteamingNit · 29/02/2012 20:33

Both, neither, I don't know and I don't suppose they did either! And they will have changed their minds either way by now anyway!

You literally couldn't make it up.....

Whatmeworry · 29/02/2012 21:43

Right Tethers, the Rebut of the ebuttal:

If by 'we', you mean 'speakers of the English language within the UK', then you're right.

I think claiming that all the speakers of the English language agree with you is a huge assumption. We have already seen that quite a few people on this alone were surprised it was racust. I'd suspect its "racism" is limited to the standard MN frothers and the rest of the UK PC community and their (very much smaller than all Engish speakers in the UK) band of acolytes.

No, because language does not work 'rationally'- words are arbitrarily ascribed to things. Anyone looking for rational justification for a word's usage will be disappointed.

In other words you are voting yourself a charter to never have to explain your reasoning rationally. Great get-out clause. Now let us take the point at issue here, the word "Coloured". The OP and all the frothers say the victim OP's friend was racist for sayng "Oh was she a coloured lady"

Was it meant in a racist way, to demean the person? No. So there is no racist intent at all.

Was it a racist thing to say - well, according to you all, it was. Yet, apparently if he had said, "Oh, she is a lady of colour" then that apparently is Not Racist.

How can anyone take that seriously, unless they are so far up their PC assholes that they can't see anything but anymore?

Is the word in itself racist? I would argue no. The reason is because everywhere else you look, no one is offended. The South Africans are not offended. The Americans are not offended. The British used not to be offended (but now apparently must be, even though many Non European British citizens do not like being labelled "black", which is the Officially Sanctioned PC word). Many British are still surprised they should be offended (By my counting about the same No. on this thread as those who Are Offended - they just don't post 20 x each about how Offended they are)

So the only people I can spot who are offended are this smallband, we few, of MN Frothers, who always love to Be Offended on other people's behalf. and I know they are full of crap, from personal experience.

To wit, I was once told by these selfsame MN frothy people that "paddy" is racist. Now I am Irish, and I don't find it racist (I have an uncle called Paddy FGS), nor am I offended by it as a word. And I can tell the difference between when its used offensively, descriptively, or even lyrically (Paddy works on the Railway...). For saying this I was called a twat etc by these same frothers. How dare I be Irish and not offended b Paddy when the MN frothers were offended - on my behalf, ungrateful me - by it.

Some refused, some provided and handy link. This erroneously assumes that people on this thread are in charge of the English language.

The link was a classic "here is a webpage that agrees with me" play. It has a number of amusing things on it, I do hope the West Indies cricket team are ashamed of their racist selves for example.

And continuous repetition of the mantra "of course it is offensive, you twat" by the same small coterie of 15 or so frothers for 500 odd posts is not data, its dogma.

If by 'crap all over' you mean 'assume racist leanings in' and by 'words we think are un PC, you mean 'racist/offensive words', then that's pretty accurate.

You take it upon yourselves to define which the racist words are, but given there is no rationality or rigour behind the the MN Frothers being offended on others' behalf, I discount that to zero for the word "coloured", for the reasons above.

Furthermore,to say that anyone who critiques PC is a "twat" or a "moron" or an "idiot" etc etc, and an X-ist and Y -ist toboot, justs displays similar fundamentalist ignorance. It is perfectly possible to be a Christian, Muslim, Feminist etc and still disagree with their fundamentalist elements. They all also respond with the same mantra "We are right, you are a fool/infidel/misogynist toquestion us" etc etc. It is thus also perfectly possible to not be racist or X ist or whatever and question whether Political Correctness is actually always correct, or whether it has, sometimes, "Gorn Mad".

As I am apparently a childish moron and a Twat, I shall now let the adults takeover :o

TheOriginalSteamingNit · 29/02/2012 22:05

Good oh!
I heard a man on his phone today saying 'there was this fooking paki on telly this morning ..'
I guess he was probably just confused about how quickly political correctness changes its mind.

tethersend · 29/02/2012 22:18

There you go, Whatme- I knew you had it in you!

I would provide a rebuttal of your rebuttal of my rebuttal, but reading it through, it would appear that you have done my work for me. Cheers Smile

OriginalJamie · 01/03/2012 08:34

whatme - I don't think there is anything you could say which could make me change my mind, and vice versa. I disagree with you so comprehensively over such a wide range of issues.

Also, I'm hardly likely to provide a link to something that disagrees with me, am I? I'm not a twat. Can you provide a link to a webpage that disagrees with you?

I believe we covered the other points in your last post, but you can carry on persisting in your assumptions that it's all a white middle class PC plot if you want.

seeker · 01/03/2012 08:47

Whatme- please can you stop saying "frothers"? It's childish and does your cause no good.

Fair enough that you don't mind being called a Paddy. It upset my late FIL a lot because he remembered being an immigrant in the 50s and it being used as a derogatory term. Presumably, however, because you don't mind, he shouldn't have minded either?

I think my big problem with this is why it matters so much to you. It's a word. You have been told that black people don't like it and why. So why not stop using it? Even if it's only some black people - isn't it better to make a tiny change in your vocabulary than to risk upsetting someone? It's like the Scots/Scotch thing. It seems pretty trivial- but it's easy enough to use the word that people are happy with rather than the one they aren't.

Oh, andnyou still haven't answered my question- what stops you using the word "Nigger"? when I was a child, "Nigger Brown was a colour, and there was a very famous historical dog called Nigger. So why not use the word now?

PeppyNephrine · 01/03/2012 08:58

Right, so "give me a list, give me a list, why oh why won't you give me a list" from you for pages and pages....didn't mean you actually wanted a list. You begged for a list, you got one, then you attacked the people who gave you the list.
Excellent logic. Jolly good.

We take it upon ourselves to define what racist terms are? Yes, we do, all of us together, in society have always done that. It can be controversial sometimes, but even a really really easy one like coloured that was decided decades ago seems to be too hard for a few people to catch on to.

You can witter and waffle all you like, about the capriciousness of language change and the nasty old thought police who are telling you what to say, but its pretty simple and everyone can see through you. We can sum up your long winded ranty posts as "wah wah wah, you big meanines won't let me say racist words, it so fucking unfair".

learningtofly · 01/03/2012 09:10

Years ago I was on a bus with my granny travelling into Birmingham city centre. She suddenly announced in a very loud whisper that this particular inner city area used to be "so nice until our friends moved in."

Oh how I wished the earth had swallowed me whole as the bus was a medley of people of various backgrounds.

My point is though while terminology is important (friends I don't think is particularly racist) the way we say words and the inference behind it also influences the meaning.

AitchTwoOhOneTwo · 01/03/2012 09:28

the scots/scotch thing isn't that similar, tbh. it's a mistake made by idiots because they didn't hear the word properly in the first place. scotch is a drink, it's never been used to describe scottish people.

AitchTwoOhOneTwo · 01/03/2012 09:32

what i mean is that saying scotch has never been a tool of oppression, afaia. more an indication of the speaker being a bit of a dick.

seeker · 01/03/2012 09:35

I do know that, aitch. My point is thwt evening people are blinkered or uneducated or whatever to understand why they shouldn't use particular words, then basic good manners should kick in to stop them saying anything that anyone might be offended by.

AitchTwoOhOneTwo · 01/03/2012 09:48

i agree. it's just that i saw scotch mentioned repeatedly and as a scot i can tell you that it does just indicate that the person is a dick rather than an oppressor.

ElusiveCamel · 01/03/2012 11:06

coloured is horrible - has overtones from apartheid S Africa. Although there was a poster on here whose dh was Zimbabwean who said coloured was the right word where he came from.
edam, haven't read the whole thread so I don't know if someone has pointed this out but 'coloured' in South Africa refers to a very specific ethnic group. It is not a generalised word used to refer to black South Africans from either Xhosa, Zulu, Sotho and other related Nguni ancestry. The ancestry of the Cape Coloureds is generally San and mixed with European - they do not speak any of the African languages in South Africa, originate from the Cape and have a unique culture.

PeppyNephrine · 01/03/2012 12:00

I have heard some use "scotch" as a descriptor of Scottish people. I doubt they'd do it again after the ripostes they got from a small scottish crowd.

Whatmeworry · 01/03/2012 18:35

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Whatmeworry · 01/03/2012 18:37

My point is though while terminology is important (friends I don't think is particularly racist) the way we say words and the inference behind it also influences the meaning.

Which has been my point allalong.It isthe intent that counts,not theword.And that is what the PC mavens continually miss.

TheOriginalSteamingNit · 01/03/2012 18:37

So is it just that you have a particular personal liking for the word 'coloured'?

blonderthanred · 01/03/2012 18:40

Wrote this earlier but stupid phone deleted.

Just wanted to add my voice to those saying (unfrothily) - it's just a matter of respect and treating people how they want to be treated, correcting your mistakes if you realise you are wrong.

My DH would hate to be called a Paddy but has relatives with the name and also celebrates Paddy's Day on the 17th. He can tell the difference between one thing and the other.

Racism is not just in the intention.

seeker · 01/03/2012 19:33

Whatme-individuals may or may not have called you those names- I don't know. You are using the word "frother" to describe everyone who disagrees with you. A little different you must agree.

I am puzzled by your refusal to answer my question about "nigger". I thought you were opposed to all PC constraints. Is it just "coloured" you want to use? Surely you want toe freedom to say "nigger" too?

learningtofly · 01/03/2012 19:45

Well words are just that aren't they? Words. It's what we do to them that is important.

How we say them and the intent, context, history, conatations and meaning behind them changes what they stand for and how we/others interpret them.

If you use coloured in terms of pencils ofcourse no-one bats an eyelid. Used to refer to people then it is offensive. Same word, different context.

PeppyNephrine · 01/03/2012 19:48

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