To think abortion law is a tough nut to crack?

[chandellina]

so the Telegraph has revealed doctors allowing abortion on sex-selection grounds. I see a couple threads on In the News expressing disgust over this, a view shared by many, I'm sure.

But as far as I understand you can have an abortion on demand for just about any reason - not feeling able to cope, not feeling financially secure, too young, too old.

So even if you were terminating for gender, couldn't you just give another reason? And if you believe in a woman's absolute right to choose - why require a stated reason at all?

My point is that the law seems very flimsy, and why be moral about sex selection and not other things - like terminating because a pregnancy interferes with a desired age gap between children, or it otherwise not being "the right time." I know there are cultural issues involved too with gender selection, but those probably are also in play for women coerced by family not to have a child out of wedlock, etc.

thoughts?

A friend of mine had a very, very late abortion, literally on the very last day that is legally permissable. Why? Well, partly because she was in denial, a 24 yo daughter of a hugely Catholic family who had just split with her violent partner of 2 years. Partly because she was just falling to pieces emotioanlly and mentally, terrified and distraught. Partly because, when the pregnancy was confirmed, it took her about 3 weeks to secure an appointment to actually have the operation, and that was only because she paid for it and she managed, after attending several clinics in various counties on consecutive days and sitting and waiting for a chance to take up a slot left open by a no-shower, she finally got that appointment.

Had she been able to access the service she needed the lateness of the operation and the horrific experience she had could have been avoided.

I abhor the idea of abortion but I am pro-choice, because I don't want a woman to have a pregnancy that may have been forced on her, or to be used as a baby-maker for someone wanting a child to profit from.

And YANBU about your opinion, I don't see a difference really. You are pro-choice or not. Same as the argument trotted out for being pro-life but not in rape cases.

SQ, abortion IS illegal in part of the UK.

Peppy, you're sick of the '6 abortions because she can't be assed with contraception' examples but the 12 year old rape victim argument from the pro-choice side is ok? double standards?

I wonder if those of you who believe in the "sanctity of life" so you are against all abortions are also vegetarians? Or do you only think that human life is important?

I'd expect them to be vegan, not vegetarian, Gurlwiththefrothycurl.

girlwiththefrothycurl actually ALL life is important, not really a subject to be mocked.

Gurl, that is a seriously flawed argument and I was a vegetarian for years (pescatarian now) You can't honestly be comparing human life to animals? Seriously?

the life of a foetus is less important than the life of a living breathing woman IMO.

Whyever not, bumbleymummy? There's something seriously flawed in the thinking of someone who believes that a collection of cells/something unborn can feel pain and fear and thus deserves not to be harmed in any way but a living, breathing, already alive lamb doesn't. Surely that's not what you're saying, is it?

Of course it's awful but the pregnant person doesn't want to have a child, so what do you do? Make them have it? What then happens to the child? A life of neglect one way or another. Too big a chance to take in my book. Unfortunately I'd opt for aborting a foetus.

Gurl makes a very good point. We know that cows and pigs are intelligent, sentient animals. Why would you get upset at the death of a 10-week old foetus but not at the slaughter of the millions of animals that die in pain and terror every day?

I think the rights should be the same, my partner knows if I was pregnant and it came down to a one lives and one dies he is to save the baby every time! Whilst my child would be without a mother I could not live with the though I killed an innocent child/baby whatever for my own selfish reasons when it was me who made it in the first place!

I am pro-choice but I do think the 'lets compare the life of a farmyard animal to a human argument to make a point' being used here is a bit weak

Well I do hack, which is why I don't eat them! It does put vegetarian/vegan pro-choicers in a strange ethical position though. They are valuing animal life above human life...

Why is it weak if the argument is based upon the fact that a foetus feels pain as has been bolded by people previously in this thread?

If it's really the a foetus feels pain issue then it makes perfect sense to compare it to killing animals. pain is pain and if you are basing an argument upont it has been shown a foetus feels pain then at least have the wherewithall to realise that your argument is flawed if you continue to do anything in life which causes pain...

Having a baby you don't want would cause pain too.

"Well I do hack, which is why I don't eat them! It does put vegetarian/vegan pro-choicers in a strange ethical position though. They are valuing animal life above human life..."

fish don't feel pain then?

The bottom line for me is this:

The history of abortion goes back to prehistoric times. There are records of mercury being used to abort foetuses almost 5000 years ago with god knows what results... Women have risked their lives through the centuries in order to terminate unwanted pregnancies. Making abortion illegal (or incredibly difficult to obtain) will NOT result in no abortion; it will result in women going through unsafe - possibly fatal - abortions.

And this...

Unsafe abortions (those performed by people without proper training or outside of a medical environment) result in approximately 70,000 maternal deaths and 5 million disabilities per year globally. An estimated 42 million abortions are performed globally each year, with 20 million of those performed unsafely. (Figures from Wikipedia, but the citations look reasonable: eg. The Lancet; The International Journal of Gynaecology and Obstetrics.)

Anyone who imagines tightening up the abortion law will mean that abortion will cease is living in cloud cuckoo land.

Yuleing, I'd be happy to take up the discussion about my reasons for eating fish but not other animals on another thread or you can PM me if you are interested but I don't think it's relevant to this particular discussion. Although I am now curious about whether vegetarian/vegan pro-choicers exist...

No, vegetarian/vegan pro-choicers are putting real, living, breathing, existing out of the womb and able to feel pain, terror and trauma creatures above a creature which is unborn, not fully formed and indeed which may be merely a collection of cells.

/\ That was to Yuleing, btw.

I think it is a weak argument because it is generally accepted that human life is more valuable than animal life.

Although I think "becuase it feels pain" is a weak argument against abortion.

But I don't think that is ever the single argument pro-lifer use. Their belief is that abortion is wrong because the embryo / foetus is alive and all human life is equally valuable. I rearely hear them arguing that all life including that of farmyard animals is equally valauble (although I am sure there are some pro-life animal rights supports who do think that it is probably not a majority view)

Oh dammit, no it wasn't, it was to bumbleymummy.
Yuleing knows this already and doesn't need reminding of it.

shocking spelling

sorry

Abortion should be a womans right without question she's the one who has to live with that decision day on day.

The extreme cases of rape and serial users of the abortion facilities don't come into it because arguing the point and pros and cons doesn't solve the problems.

Wendy who lives at number 54 tut tutting about Gail who lives at number 56 and being judgy is about as far as it should go.

If abortion was harder to get you'd get some religious doctor interfering with a womans rights over her own body and nobody wants that surely?