To think abortion law is a tough nut to crack?

[chandellina]

so the Telegraph has revealed doctors allowing abortion on sex-selection grounds. I see a couple threads on In the News expressing disgust over this, a view shared by many, I'm sure.

But as far as I understand you can have an abortion on demand for just about any reason - not feeling able to cope, not feeling financially secure, too young, too old.

So even if you were terminating for gender, couldn't you just give another reason? And if you believe in a woman's absolute right to choose - why require a stated reason at all?

My point is that the law seems very flimsy, and why be moral about sex selection and not other things - like terminating because a pregnancy interferes with a desired age gap between children, or it otherwise not being "the right time." I know there are cultural issues involved too with gender selection, but those probably are also in play for women coerced by family not to have a child out of wedlock, etc.

thoughts?

What if your daughter didn't tell you she was raped, KitchenRoll and you found out after a couple of months?

No, women are not forced to have illegal abortions at all. They would be choosing to do that, rather than giving their child up for adoption. Which incidentally, I think should be much less stigmatised and easier to do. A woman who goes through pregnancy and birth for the child they created and then gives it up because she cannot bring it up has done a very noble thing. A woman who takes a risk and doesn't want to face up to the consequences is selfish and irresponsible.

Tbh, I wouldn't object to rape victims being given abortions within a couple of weeks. But ideally they should all be given the MAP and it is fairly reliable if taken correctly so it would work in most cases.

How is rape pregnancy different to an accidental pregnancy in your view? Why does become acceptable to you under these circumstances but no other?

I do agree hackmum, its more complicated than that one question. but my point was, if you decide the foetus is a human life, you would need to balance it's rights in the same way as, say a one month old baby's. If (and admittedly, I can't think of a situation! but bear with me....) you had a choice between the mother's wellbeing and the baby's well being, you would weigh them against eachother and, as you say, depending on the circumstances, sadly come down in favour of one over the other. My point is, it wouldn't be automatic.

If the foetus is not a human life like yours, mine, our DCs etc, then it is a totally different question.

Winnybella, it wouldn't be my choice what happened because abortion is legal, but if it were my choice, she would be having a baby.

I can never understand why someone who claims to be pro-life or anti abortion would think that a foetus conceived of rape has fewer 'rights' than that conceived another way. At least be consistant in your thinking!

A woman who goes through pregnancy and birth for the child they created and then gives it up because she cannot bring it up has done a very noble thing. A woman who takes a risk and doesn't want to face up to the consequences is selfish and irresponsible.

Ridiculous. How many victims of "care" are there in this world? Having an abortion, as someone said, IS taking responsibility. It IS facing up to the consequences.

"*"just because the birth mother doesn't want the baby doesn't mean that no one will want it."

How in the world is it okay to force a woman to be a baby-producing machine for somebody else? Because that's effectively what you're doing if deny an abortion to a woman who has an unwanted pregnancy. How is it okay to "save" that collection of cells/baby's llife and in all likelihood totally and utterly screw up the mental health of the woman concerned? Thattheory will always seem to me to be an attempt to control and, just as bad, punish the pregnant woman. " *

Doesnt she make that choice when she has sex? Isnt that the same choice we say Men make when they accidentally father a child and the woman decided she is "keeping it". Sometimes people have unprotected sex, sometimes contraception fails but we expect (and i accept that sadly many dont) men to "man" up and accept their role as fathers and providers because that is the choice they made when they decided to have sex."

That's not the same choice at all. A man doesn't have to go through the physical, emotional, financial, life-risking process of pregancy and childbirth so the two simply don't compare IMHO. And FWIW I don't "expect" men to accept a role as father and/or provider if he doesn't want a child which a woman chooses to bear.

Yet again the distraught 12 yo rape victim example gets trotted out as the pro-choice argument. Why do you have to resort to extreme examples? How many 12 yo rape victims have abortions every year?

Lesley33 in response to your earlier post about the woman who had 7 abortions being forced to be a mother as an alternative - no, she would just have to take more responsibility for contraception because abortion wouldn't be there as a fall back plan.

Fed up, because of the choice involved, obviously. A woman doesn't have a choice when she gets raped, she does when she decides to take a risk.

Okay...

I can't imagine that any woman takes the decision to have a late abortion lightly. I think the fact that 91% are early shows that late abortions will be mainly due to pretty severe circumstances. I am generally very pro-choice.

Personally I find the idea of late abortions distressing but I am pretty sure they are more distressing for the women going through them and are not ever done on a whim. As much as I find them a difficult concept I would never like to take the right to have one away from another woman.

Also - a lot of late abortions carried out are not carried out because the mother does not want to end the pregnancy but because she has to for medical reasons. That is very sad and I think the assumption that abortions are always becasue the mother wants to end the pregnancy can be very insensitive to mothers who have had to end a much wanted pregnancy and the language sometimes used by the pro-choice argument can be very insensitive.

It is a difficult law to get right. It is a difficult subject, very emotive and with so many different view points.

I really couldn't say when I think life begins. I don't think it is at coneception but I think it is before birth. I can't draw the line myself. Vialibilty gets earlier and earlier with advances in medical science so thats perhaps not a good measure.

Kitchenroll can i ask your opinion of abortion to save a mothers life (sorry if you have already covered this i have been skim reading), I'm Pro-Choice BTW but respect peoples beliefs

I don't care about why anyone makes these choices, and I'm sick of the outlier cases being trotted out as some kind of justification for control, the "oh I heard of some who has 6 abortions every year because they couldn't be arsed to pick up free condoms" kind of bollocks.
Hard cases make bad law, and the only sensible stance is to let women control their own bodies. Anything else is madness.

bumbley-only because I wanted to see how extreme KitchenRoll was in her views.

As I have said before I think every woman should have a right to termination, whatever her reasons.

Now, a person who would insist that a child goes through pregnancy at 12yo is clearly deranged, though.

The whole rape argument is exactly what I'm harping on about when I say people are being illogical. If you think the foetus has at least competing rights to life as the mother (becasue you think life begins at some point, eg at conception), why on earth would it make any difference at all whether the mother was raped?

It is illogical!

That is true legallyblonde.

my comments linked back to my earlier comments which i can see are so far back in the thread now that noone will make the link.

I said in earlier posts that i am pro choice but would support the lowering of the fetal age limit to 10-12 weeks but with exceptions for situations where genetic illness is detected late but probably still limited to around 20 weeks. Those are just my lines in the sand. I personally find it very difficult to deal with the idea of the procedure begin carried out any later and i think these issues really need to debated more publically and hopefully without the hyperbole and hysteria which sadly seems to accompany them. Having a lower age limit would remove the issue of sex selective abortions becuase the abortion window would be closed by the time that gender was identifiable but those with genuine extenuating circumstances would still have options.

More generally i guess what i am trying to suggest is that woman should have an option of an abortion up to a certain age limit (which i and i think alot of other people currently think is too high) but after that the pregancy should be allowed to continue and the baby be born. If the mother/father does not want to parent the child then the child can be adopted.

THe issue with respect to my post about choices arose specifically with regard to denying woman an abortion and forcing her to be a "baby making machine" for others wrt adopting the baby after birth. I was looking at it in the post abortion window but i think the argument holds water before that also. Actions unfortunately have consequences.

wrt to the rape scenario, it is i think a lesser of two evils. Children concieved of rape are as innocent as their mothers however forcing a rape victim to continue a pregnancy seems as abhorrent as the original rape. I dont know what the answer is. Obviously also the choice argument doesnt apply as the rape victim did not make a choice.

I think some of the people on here could do with moving to countries where abortion is illegal, rather than trying to pollute our isles with their despicable views.

I've been saving this link for an occasion such as this:
The only moral abortion is my abortion
Please read and it and find the many examples of hypocrisy on this issue.
Making women have babies they don't want IS women hating.
Making women die as a consequence of gewtting rid of an unwanted child IS women hating.
Pro-choice means I do not get to decide what is right for you. And that you don't get to decide what is right for me.

The difficulty with legalising abortion for rape victims only, is who decides which females have been raped, and how?

Especially within a timescale of a few weeks.

It doesn't work.

The answer is the only person who can decide on whether to continue with a preganancy or not, is the women who is pregnant.
It's very simple really.

Fed up, because of the choice involved, obviously. A woman doesn't have a choice when she gets raped, she does when she decides to take a risk.

So the foetus in these situations doesn't feel the same pain as the foetus from the woman who chose to have sex? Your argument is stupid if you are arguing for the rights of the foetus, a foetus that feels and feels pain. It's not the foetus's fault someone was raped, is it?

I think some of the people on here could do with moving to countries where abortion is illegal, rather than trying to pollute our isles with their despicable views. That's rather harsh sardine. At the end of the day everyone is entitled to their views on this forum.