to say that most inner city high schools are wank?

[ladyfirenze]

Why are we getting it so wrong here? The culture amongst many kids seems to be that if they are trying their best and working hard they have somehow lost to the teacher. What the actual fuck is this about?

Actually you're right wibbly. My old school was a sink estate school not an inner city comp really.

Still wank though.

OP, are you really asking why there is a culture of 'doing well at school = losing to the man' in inner city schools? Is that perpetuated at home in inner city families or do you think that staff in these schools are particularly 'wank' at inspiring students? Or is it peer pressure? If so, why is it prevalent in some schools and not others? The differentials are staff, parents and teachers. Do you think geography comes into it?

The answers are pretty obvious really and it comes down to poverty. Where parents have failed to 'succeed' materially, their children are uninspired and defensive. So the staff come down harder, the students hackles raise further. Us and them is established and 'doing well' becomes synonymous with acting like a 'wage slave', only the currency (education) appears irrelevant to the students, because they don't know people this worked out for.

Sorry, that should have read 'staff, parents and students', not 'teachers'.

YABU

Audenshaw boys school and Fairfield girls school are hardly inner city comps. (both old single sex grammar schools, massively oversubscribed and therefore selective in that they have many more applicants than places) it's a bit like saying they (and Blue Coat school as another example) are typical Manchester City schools.
I give you Abraham Moss, Newall Green, Manchester Academy to name a few...

bringback last post in response to yours :)

My dd goes to one of these schools.

Great teachers.

Great head.

Bloody difficult kids. (including dd - not a result of DH and I not taking an interest. We both have postgraduate degrees and do everything we can to stimulate and support our kids in education).

Without a HUGE amount of money and drive schools like dd's can become terrible places to teach and learn.

Without a HUGE amount of money and drive schools like dd's can become terrible places to teach and learn.
but with good management and all of the above they can be as good as the best :)

Yes - very true MrsKitty!

The Gifted & Talented programme in this area anyway ensures the brightest kids are identified and pushed harder!

Not sure how well the 'G&T' programme works in many schools.

DD's been identified as 'gifted'. She's not. She's just a typical confident and articulate middle-class girl from a professional family. She just seems smart compared to many of the disadvantaged children she's educated alongside.

The 'pushing' so far seems to consist of having her English teacher twittering over how bright she is, while failing to notice that the quality of her written work is shit and that she makes no effort at all.

I am a secondary school teacher and have taught in 2 inner city secondaries in Manchester. There is NO WAY my kids will ever be going to them (and they have good OFSTEDs). I have friends who have worked in most of the schools round here so I have insider knowledge about most of them. For Manchester it's either private/Trafford grammars or a couple of 'middle class' secondaries if you want something decent, other than that they are hell holes. Most of the kids will freely tell you that.

MsGradgrind Thank you so much for your grammar lesson. I didn't think it necessary to proof read Mumsnet posts :)
For the record, I have a Masters degree from a "red brick" uni and I too have professional qualifications. You beat me with the PHD though ;)
Also, for the record, my children go to a state school. My eldest will probably go to an inner city comp in Manchester because I cannot afford private school fees. If I could afford it I would send him to a private school. This is because my local comp has only achieved 40% of pupils getting 5 good GCSEs. I think this result is, as the OP puts it, "wank".
Why should I want my children to go to a poorly performing school?

Oh, and that is not a criticism of the ordinary teachers who work incredibly hard under extremely stressful circumstances. Poor senior management spouting government crap is often to blame, combined with 'gangster' culture at the kids' end and the poor main scale teachers squeezed miserably between the two.

lunaticow - 40% is probably not as bad as you think when you consider all the kids with SEN, teachers with no real qualifications in dealing with SEN, the children who speak English as a second language and the amount of kids who have recently arrived in this country.

You could always home ed like I will be doing!

I forgot to add that the Police often turn up at this Manchester comp to arrest the kids, so MsGradgrind would you like your children to go to this school?

kumquatsare.... I agree with you but because of the issues in the school I am not confident that my child would have the best opportunity he could have. He may well go there but I am hoping for an alternative (if it works out). Home ed is not an option for me but I admire you for doing that.

YANBU

I work in a school with its own police officer (and he usually has a full caseload).
It is nowhere near the inner city but in a sink estate in the suburbs.

mrsKitty I work at one of those schools you've mentioned, it really isn't bad :) Never going to be Manchester Grammar but has a brilliant ethos & is very inclusive.

wordfactory I agree with compos. My local comp is trying hard to get the middle class kids in. That can only be a good thing, surely?

handbagCrab - would you send your own kids to the school you work in? I've never worked with anyone yet who did. All the teachers' kids were at the selective grammars/ secondaries in very middle class areas or private school.

Possibly kumquats

I wouldn't if I worked here as I wouldn't want to work in the same school as my dcs, for their sake as much as mine! Also, not in catchment and live in different authority so that wouldn't work. But I'm not against sending my child or children if I have more to the inner city comp where i work. The teaching is usually very good and the pupils are generally nice and hard working. I went to a comp as did my dh and we're doing well so...

Kumquat You are really worrying me now! The only teacher I know at the school DS might go to sent his own child to a selective grammar which is out of the area. Not a good advert for the school. From what you say, this is not uncommon. Why will you not send your DCs to the Manc comps? I don't want to give too much away but the school I'm considering is a Catholic school in South Manc. I think the staff are generally good but I'm worried about all the dreadful stories I've heard about the kids. I've also seen extraordinary behavior from them, e.g. setting stuff on fire and playing with fireworks. Also a group of them threw stones at my son on his way home from school (just for a laugh). I know there are lovely kids there too but I don't want him spending time with a bunch of wasters with no aspiration.

luniatic whilst I don't think it wopuld hurt to get some middle class Dc into the school, doing so would only massage the figures. Yes, they'd come in and get level whatever in their SATs and some A*s at GCSE so on paper things would look like they'd improved. But in reality the lives and education of the pupils already their and being failed would not change one iota.

The idea that a few middle class parents can achieve great change in the face of huge racial issues, mass local unemployment and an inordinate number of pupils whose parents speak no english and have little engagement in their edication, is optimistic at best, arrogant and obnoxious at worst.