to boycott shops that use forced unpaid labour (aka slavery)?

[ChickenLickn]

These stores:

Boots,
Tesco,
Asda,
Primark,
Argos,
TK Maxx,
Poundland,
Arcadia group of stores run by billionaire Sir Philip Green, which includes Top Shop and Burton,

are all using 'workfare' schemes, forcing jobseekers to work 30 hrs/week unpaid for 6 months in profit making companies or face losing their jobseekers benefits. Mre details here.

Please avoid shopping in these shops as much as possible, this is basically slavery and is illegal under human rights law (and currently being challenged in the courts).

The good news is that Waterstones and Sainsburys have recently pulled out of the scheme.

Whilst large corporations are getting free labour they are not going to employ people in paid positions and as illustrated in previous posts they are going to use their free labour whilst sending paid workers home.

It's bad news for the economy and bad news for those already working for these companies. Shouldn't be allowed. Those jobs could be filled by paid workers and that would also reduce the unemployment figures whilst giving these people enough to live on and pay for childcare - how do workfare people get childcare on £60 a week?

From someone who had a family member laid off by a major retailer for refusing to go on a zero hours contract so workfare placed people could work his hours. No work, no pay.

They are not slaves, they are getting benefits. Jeez, get a grip.

OH huntycat you sound like you have been watching too many 80s yuppy movies, The average intern isn't in a flash suit in an office in the city. Most I know support THEMSELVES somehow. The against camp are talking about stereotypes and assumptions but then come out with that sort of nonsense!

I supported myself through re-training, with a child, in paid childcare, not free family help.

and yes school hours jobs that make child care easy peasy ARE hard to find, but lots of parents, me included, do not have cushty school hours jobs, OR someone else at home or grandparents to help. I know people who are not finding work but they wont consider antisocial hours, so IMO it is their choice that it has taken so long to find something. There ARE shift work nurseries, there are ways around things even if they're not ideal!

Cannot stand the it's impossible stance, it is HARD, but it IS possible, and just because finding a job is hard, doesn't mean there are no jobs, both my DH and I have got new jobs in the last six months.

"there are no retail jobs". Just not true. There are retail jobs, no denying that they are hard to get, but there are NO retail jobs? not true!

YABU to use melodramatic language to draw attention to an issue that while contentious and worth discussing is not on a par with the far more serious issues such a title might have been drawing attention to - thus cheapening the point you wish to make.

I'd thought this was going to be about people actually working as slaves and yes, there are plenty, in Dubai for example, where foreign workers' passports are taken away, they're forced to work long hours, live in horrible conditions and don't see most of the promised pay, elsewhere where child labour operating similarly does supply some of our high street shops and here, where the same thing happens to young women tricked into the sex trade.

If you want to have a discussion about the unfairness of workfare, fine but it is not fine to do so by implying it is the moral equivalent of true slavery. To do so suggests you are naive, ignorant of these wider issues or just very self-absorbed, placing an issue that might affect someone you know above far more serious issues affecting others - that leaves a nasty taste, as there's an implication of disregarding others', more horrible experience.

There are better reasons to boycott some shops and a boycott probably isn't the tactic to start with if you want to bring your disapproval to the attention of shops using workfare. They won't notice it but might if you wrote to them and to your MP - though perhaps you've done that already?

How many people on this thread are using an iPad? There was an exposé of the factory conditions endured by the workers and it sounds horrific. The workers are paid but the conditions are close to what I'd call modern day slavery.

Is it possible to be totally ethical? If you grow veg can you guarantee that the seeds come from a company that uses labour that was paid nmw or above and that your gardening tools came from countries with non-oppressive regimes and workers who were paid a living wage?

Personally I think that nmw is another con that profits billionaires. It should be enough so that full time workers don't need topping up with tax credits. If Sainsburys and JL were so ethical tgey'd be paying a living wage rather than the bare minimum ie. nmw

Do all of you who think that Workfare is a GOOD THING think that we who are on benefits are somehow less than human? That we are ALL feckless layabouts who wouldn't work even if offered a job that fitted in with our childcare responsibilities? Who would rather sit around watching Jeremy Kyle?

Are we somehow a different sort of being, less than human, who doesn't deserve the same employment rights as the 'worthy' people? That don't deserve to have benefits money without being forced into slavery?

Do you all think that you are soooooo much better, that YOU won't ever be affected by these issues? I can tell you, it doesn't take much to change your whole life.

One diagnosis of epilepsy, and I went from being in a couple, earning £50k in a career I could progress in, paying a mortgage, living in a lovely area, paying for holidays, clubs for my dc etc - to being a Lone parent, living in a shithole house having had my lovely house repossessed, eaten through £20k of savings in the 8 years since my diagnosis, in further debt, reliant on benefits to survive. It's a fucking long fall - and it can happen to ANYONE.

People on benefits are no different to you. They want to work - but they don't want to leave their 5yo child to walk home alone, and STAY alone until 6/7pm.

They want to work, for at least NMW, and they want the childcare there to lenable them to do so.

I had an interesting discussion with my 26yo cousin last night. We were discussing the various merits of day nurseries in each of our areas. We live just 35 miles apart.

Her local day nurseries - have NO waiting list, only need 1 weeks deposit, you can change your days/times week by week provide ll 3 meals, and cost £45/day an under 2yo, £42 for an over 2yo. They pick up and drop off, by people carrier, to ALL local schools. You can phone them on Friday and have a place for your child, aged 3mo to 11yo by the Monday.

MY local Nurseries - have a 6 month minimum waiting list, Need a calendar months deposit. Need a calendar months notice to change your days/hours, and they CAN'T guarantee that you will be able to, in fact mostly CAN'T change your days at ALL. Don't provide lunch or dinner, only breakfast. So you have to pay extra to send them in with a pack-up AND have to cook a dinner for them after a hard day at work. NONE of them drop off or pick up from schools. If you want before-school or after school childcare - you'd better hope that the ONE kids club here has a space, out of the 40 that they take (this covers 6 schools, with between 360 and 420 pupils in EACH...) ON THE DAYS YOU NEED. Nursery costs £55 a day for under 2yo's, £52 for over 2yo's. So, £10 more EVERY DAY. Or £50 a week extra for a 5-day week. Which is a hell of a difference in just 35 miles!!

The difference is MARKED. I WISH I was allowed to move to her town - I would even have a guaranteed job in my Uncles company. HOWEVER. I am tied to my shitty town by a prohibited steps order that my Ex-H has got, and will be for another 9 years.

NOT EVERYONE UNEMPLOYED is a waster. I want to work. But it isn't made bloody easy in my town, what with Workfare people taking all the retail jobs, and the childcare being SO bloody inflexible. which is the problem most of my friends have.

YANBO Work fare is disgraceful

CrazyGracieUK - Now THAT is something I whooleheartedly agree, with. If NMW covered basic living expenses, then no more need for Tax Credits, or Housing benefit for those WORKING FULL TIME, Massive savings on the Welfare bill, enough left for those who are disabled etc in the pot...instant answer.

And if it ISN'T the answer for those companies profits, then they are making a profit off the back of exploited workers.

"Do all of you who think that Workfare is a GOOD THING think that we who are on benefits are somehow less than human? "

no huntycat, which is why it is winding me up that there is an implication that the kinds of work linked is not good enough and too demeaning and worthless for people on JSA when I have done several of the jobs metioned! I am not expecting anything I wouldn't and haven't done myself! So no I don't think they're less than me but also no better.

And it wasn't fricken slavery! Slavery is signing up to a lie on a cruise ship, having your passport taken, sharing a bunk that you get to sleep in in 6 hour shifts, not seeing daylight and peeling spuds for 10 hours a day until you or your co-workers start jumping off the frickin ship JUST TO MAKE IT STOP!

I'm NOT saying that retail work is demeaning - I have had plenty of retail jobs in the last 8 years since my diagnosis of epilepsy stopped my from doing the career I had trained in!

I am saying that doing retail work for £1.92 an hour rather than £6.08 an hour is demeaning.

And once again: IF THE JOB IS AVAILABLE FOR WORKFARE, THEN IT IS AVAILABLE FOR A PAID EMPLOYEE WITH EMPLOYEE RIGHTS.

I have worked in Asda since my diagnosis. I have worked in a BP petrol station since my diagnosis. I have worked in an Arcadia group clothing store since my diagnosis. I have worked in a craft shop since my diagnosis. I have been made redundant TWICE, a week short of getting redundancy payments, from those jobs. I have had to give up one of them due to childcare issues (i.e. NONE for an SN teenager, as the childminder gave notice on my FIRST DAY), and I have been medically retired from the other.I was also medically retired from my original, well paid, HRT career since my diagnosis.

I think I AM well placed to comment on the pitfalls of this scheme!

Yes.... EXACTLY.
These companies should employ these people with full pay and full rights, not profiteer from the unemployment situation.

Hunty, I agree that events can change peoples life. Thats why things like mortgage cover and life insurance exist.

However, those that truly want to work will use benefits as the short term safety net it is intended for whilst others will lounge on JSA/IS for many years and a high percentage have more children whilst on benefits/tax credits that they expect the state to support.

If your children need to stay in the same area as their father, then you need to look outside the "ideal" job and be far more creative with childcare. There arent just nurseries but childminders, nannies, au pairs and low waged people can get the bulk of childcare paid for by the state.

There are jobs out there, a quick search online brings up lots of job sites with vacancies but most people either dont want to work for the same money that they get in benefits (obv far too high in the first place) or think they have a right to work 10-2 term time only as they cant possibly work and raise children at the same time despite millions of others doing it.

I like lottiegb's post.

happymummy 70% of a £200 pw bill is £140. In my NMW job I earned £100 pw. My travel was £24 a week. Do the maths.

As I am well placed to disagree with the posts about retail or care being worthless and demeaning to ex teachers and plumbers etc.

And the assumption that I think the posts "good enough" for people on JSA because I think they have no qualifications or experience. I merely disagree that these jobs are of no worth or enjoyment to educated experienced people.

I think some of the examples of missuse of the scheme are ignorant. Like the no paper CVs or preferences example. The company I work for gives no preferential treatment in the application process to people on work experience either, but let me explain:
The interview short list works on an anonomous points system, it is done above the individual manager's head, they have no say over who gets short listed, so they can REALLY like someone who's doing work experience with them but cannot get them an interview and can do NOTHING with a paper CV. BUT having the experience will give extra points so increse the chance of the manager getting to interview that person.
Even once short listed it may be impossible for a manager to hire someone they like because some interviews work on a points system too. I have "passed" an interview but still had to wait to see if anyone got higher points than me before I knew the job was mine. But the experience may help you GET more points in interview. And its not such a bad thing that managers can't just hire their friends over higher points people now is it?

so I read this:
"On day 1 I took my CV by day 3 it was still on the staff room table for anyone to look at. I was told I?d have to apply for vacancies online like everyone else and that I?d get no special treatment because of my placement.?
and I don't think "oh so it was a waste of time", I think "yeah that's fair, that's what we all have to do", and it in now way to me proves that the placement was worthless in terms of getting paid vacancies

Employment = NMW and the right to be treated as a human being.

Workfare = No pay, and no right to a break, whether that be for food/toilet or just a break. No right to refuse overtime, or your benefits will be sanctioned. For the posters saying it is a choice, perhaps slavery is a strong term to use, because yes, the benefit claimant could refuse to claim benefits and therefore not have to go onto Workfare schemes, but how are these people supposed to live on £0???

If anyone in employment has ever been treated poorly at work, and had no support or help, were given no breaks at work, no chance to eat or drink anything, no opportunity to go to the toilet, knowing they couldn't keep a roof over their heads or put food on the table for themselves and their DC if they didn't go to this job....how many workers would feel they had no choice but to continue working??

RRR retail and care are not demeaning, not at all. I enjoyed my shop job. But you have to hit the magic 16 hours (zero hour contracts are a pisser), travel is expensive etc.

Also, I have been turned down for several jobs recently for reasons such as being "overqualified," which is a hugely irritating assumption about my intentions. Also turned down because experience isn't in the last two years. Hence current self-employment.

A relative of mine thought she was washed up a siingle mum to teens in her mid 40s till she got on one of these schemes not in a shop though she was offered a permanent job , and she loves it , I can see your point but being long term unemployed and gettign back to work isnt as easy as some think it is ,

My Mortgage cover AND life insurance REFUSED to pay out. Because my Neurologist discovered that I had been reporting MILD symptoms of epilepsy to my GP for 10 years previous to my ACTUAL diagnosis. I HADN'T been diagnosed, so I had NO clue that epilepsy was what I was suffering from (ratherthan the depression and migraine it had been misdiagnosed as, which is actually a quite common misdiagnosis for mild epilepsy, that only becomes apparent after a proper seizure, rather than a partial seizure). Because I was disaplaying previous symptoms, as disclosed by my Neurologist - it was classed as a 'pre-existing condition'. So neither insurance paid out.

It can happen to ANYONE.

"happymummy 70% of a £200 pw bill is £140. In my NMW job I earned £100 pw. My travel was £24 a week. Do the maths"

On NMW, an adult would be getting WTC and likely HB/CTB. If they have children theres also CTC/CB. So its not simply a case of saying it only the NMW coming into the household. Yes it may mean not much is left over the in years the children are small but thats the reality as well for parents who pay their own childcare and dont claim.

as a paid employer for some retailers, overtime is compulsary too (if you want your contract to be rolled over too)

and are people really getting no breaks? The links make reference to only getting 30 mins for 5.5 hours work (how much do they think paid employees get?) and not being allowed off site on breaks. I can't go off site on my (unpaid) break, the wedding photographers I paid a small fortune to couldn't go off site when hired by me - that was NOT slave labour!), the examples just sound pretty standard to me, If anyone is not giving brakes in line with what an employed person is getting then that is wrong, but doesn't make the scheme itself wrong. The link makes it sound like some of those people over estimate what paid employees get!

The last retail job I got is known for giving "over qualified" as a reason to turn people down in interview, but I am a graduate and worked with graduates and professionals who were similarly "over qualified" to people who got turned down on the grounds of being "over qualified", I think its just an easy reason to give, if they like you best and you give the best interview they'll hire you!

I've done zero contract hours, its scary but I've always managed to bring it up to an average of 16 hours a week (TCs will accept this as an average, you don't have to hit it every week so long as you are hitting 64hrs over the course of a month). I don't turn jobs down because they're zero contract hours. TCs are quite used to that sort of situation and so long as you update them regularly it's fine.

HappyMummyOfOne - Tax Credits will only pay SOME of the childcare IF you use Ofsted registered childcare. Most areas have a HUGE shortage of Ofsted registered childcare. You cannot get help with a Nanny. You cannot get help with the costs of an Au-Pair.

If you are in Social Housing, and you give one of your rooms over to an Au-Pair or a Nanny, it is classed as 'sub-letting'. You are then in breach of your Tenancy agreement, and will lose your home. The council then has NO duty to house you. So if you cannot get a deposit together for a Private Rented house - you are HOMELESS. ON THE STREETS HOMELESS. As the council has no duty to house you, you will not even get temporarily housed in a B&B or hostel. Are you saying that people should put themselves at serious risk of being ON THE STREETS HOMELESS in order to give a room to an Au-pair or Nanny?

Also - how do they COVER the costs of the Au-pair or Nanny? If you are earning just £6.08/hr before tax, and Tax Credits won't give any help for that kind of childcare?

And as for you moaning about people on Tax Credits having dc while claiming Tax Credits - should WORKING FULL-TIME preclude you from having dc JUST because you are in a NMW job? Should those who have no hope of EVER having a job that pays more than NMW also have no hope of ever having dc? When NMW is paid at a level that means that people can cover all their living costs WITHOUT Tax Credits - then and ONLY THEN can you moan about people having dc while claiming Tax Credits. To moan about people that are working full-time having children just because their EMPLOYER won't pay them a living wage is akin to saying that anyone who is not capable of earning xxx amount is not allowed to have children. Which is breeding by selection - or Eugenicism in different wording.

Because Tax Credits are NOT a subsidy for the 'work-shy'. They are paid to people IN FULL-TIME WORK. They are a BUSINESS SUBSIDY, paid to allow businesses to pay their employees LESS than a living wage. If businesses were forced to pay enough to cover basic living costs, then the Welfare bill would reduce massively.