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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to boycott shops that use forced unpaid labour (aka slavery)?

355 replies

ChickenLickn · 11/02/2012 00:07

These stores:

Boots,
Tesco,
Asda,
Primark,
Argos,
TK Maxx,
Poundland,
Arcadia group of stores run by billionaire Sir Philip Green, which includes Top Shop and Burton,

are all using 'workfare' schemes, forcing jobseekers to work 30 hrs/week unpaid for 6 months in profit making companies or face losing their jobseekers benefits. Mre details here.

Please avoid shopping in these shops as much as possible, this is basically slavery and is illegal under human rights law (and currently being challenged in the courts).

The good news is that Waterstones and Sainsburys have recently pulled out of the scheme.

OP posts:
HappyMummyOfOne · 12/02/2012 09:27

Not everybody claiming has paid tax and unless they were paying heavily excessive amounts then their taxes probably wont have even paid for the public services they used as a child never mind as an adult with benefits added on top.

Signing off and back on they have got wise to and the new claim will be placed back at the previous stage.

Yes its all the big companies that are supporting this but they have the structure and staff to cope, many small companies dont and i'm sure lots of others bar the initial list are used as well.

Huntycat, if you put as much effort into jobseeking as you doing asking for FOI requests just to back up an internet debate on a parents site then you should easily get a job.

coraltoes · 12/02/2012 09:33

Not everyone on jsa has kids, so many are at the start of their adult lives. This will provide work experience where previously they had none. Not everything is a childcare issue.

coraltoes · 12/02/2012 09:35

But yes, do boycott...I'm sure they'll really notice.

spenditwisely · 12/02/2012 09:57

Child benefit is for children - not for adults. The money goes directly to them for their needs. Unless you want to make children work for it. Means testing for child benefit is absurd because children can't earn money.
If you want to means test child benefit it would have to come under a kind of tax break - which no longer makes it a benefit.

It is rather galling to go to the job centre and watch a bunch of incompetents telling you to go and get a job in Tescos.

GavisconJunkie · 12/02/2012 11:07

coraltoes exactly. I can understand that this scheme doesn't suit everyone, BUT it saved my brother, perhaps literally.

He lives in an area of particularly high unemployment & didn't manage to find a permanent position since leaving school. He was very depressed, not sleeping, just about to give up & he was placed (albeit in a smallish local business) as a result of this scheme. He perked up almost immediately, threw himself into it with gusto & at the end got a permanent, full time position which he's still in a year or so on. He was able to gain useful experience & have a sense of worth & purpose. These factors shouldn't be overlooked simply because the situation doesn't suit you.

IUseTooMuchKitchenRoll · 12/02/2012 11:30

I can understand that some people might feel demoralised having to do work fare, and many of the other criticisms of the scheme. But I don't think any of those things makes work fare completely wrong.

If someone feels demoralised, then that is down to their perception of things. They can choose to think 'this is crap, I'm having to do the same work as people who are being paid properly and it's not fair' or they could choose to think 'OK, wel this isn't ideal, but I have been doing my best to find work for 13 weeks (or more) and it hasn't worked. I may as well give this my best shot because I have nothing to lose, I don't want a massive gap in my CV, and I'm not doing anything with my time that couldn't be done after I've finished'.

I think people should have their transport costs paid for when they take part in work fare, it seems wrong that they don't. But I don't see what is so wrong with the system that makes people object so passionately.

And I disagree that if the job is there for workfare then it is there for a paid employee. How can you be so sure about that? Maybe the people who spend time training the work fare participants and doing the surrounding admin would be directed to do the job that is given to the workfare participant. Maybe the employers would just expect more productivity from the staff it already has and wouldn't consider employing more. Maybe they would employ just one more and then it would seem pointless taking the opportunity of experience away from lots of people so that one can be provided with a job that will still leave them requiring benefits in the way of tax credits.

CherylWillBounceBack · 12/02/2012 11:52

"And I disagree that if the job is there for workfare then it is there for a paid employee. How can you be so sure about that?"

HuntyCat (I think) has already given an excellent example of how a person was made redundant from a store and then placed via workware into the same role, at an effective 1/3 of the salary they were on before.

This has been a very interesting thread, and I've found everything that Huntycat and the OP have said to be bang on (like the fact that all mainstream political parties are doing the same things). I just wish they hadn't used the emotive language of 'slavery' that others have chosen to focus on to try and discredit their posts.

niceguy2 · 12/02/2012 12:33

I think the problem with Workfare is it's a blunt tool which could be useful for some but useless for others. There's little point in forcing say for example a highly skilled IT person who has been continuously employed for a long period to stack shelves for two weeks. But then for some people who have practically no qualifications, no experience then it could be useful experience to put on a CV.

But how do you differentiate and how do you ensure that only people it could 'help' attend? I guess there's no easy answers.

As for rude staff there's no call for it but then I'm sure if any of them were here they'd have plenty of stories of people coming in who've been rude/abusive to them. Not that it's any defence but just saying it's not always black & white.

Heswall · 12/02/2012 14:55

Well how you differentiate is by looking at peoples CV's and perhaps their P60.
In 2000 I had to go to the job centre as a single mum and they stated they could do nothing for the likes of me even back then.
As for people being rude, ask any nurse how many times a day she experiences rude people and then ask her if that means she/he then treats every patient with utter contempt. These jc employees are civil servants being paid out of the public purse and would do well to remember that a high % of the people they have such little regard for usually pay their wages and will do again in the future. No unemployed = no job centre staff required.

ChickenLickn · 12/02/2012 16:08

'niceguy' - How you differentiate is by asking people and letting them choose based on their knowledge of their situation, job market and experience, and what they can see will be beneficial. The individual will be far more knowledgeable than the JCP unspecialised staff.

OP posts:
ChickenLickn · 16/02/2012 00:34

US women in workfare talk about their lives:

As the UK government has looked to emulate US welfare-to-work (workfare) programmes as part of welfare reform, False Economy has been examining the US experience of workfare for comparison.

Previous False Economy articles on US workfare programmes considered the failure of those programmes to move welfare recipients into paid jobs and the racism and sexism that informed Wisconsin's much-touted (by welfare reformers) welfare-to-work scheme.

In this article, two New York workfare workers talk about workfare and their experience of workfare's sanctions process ? having welfare cheques suddenly cut for apparently failing to comply with workfare's strict rules. They define welfare-to-work as ?slavery? - a punitive, poorly-administered system that has little to do with helping welfare recipients into ongoing, paid work and everything to do with pushing people off welfare and into a pool of free, disposable labour:

I get an unexpected response when I ask one-time New York work experience programme (WEP) workfare participants Pamela Brown and Tyletha Samuels if they were ever sanctioned when they were in workfare. They both fall apart laughing on their end of the phone.

Everybody on workfare gets sanctioned at one point or another, Samuels says. Or at least - that's what it feels like. You can miss a day at work for a doctor's appointment that your caseworker fails to record properly, or turn up at the wrong workplace because you've misunderstood an instruction, or find that you've been given the wrong instructions and - that's it. You're issued with a failure to comply notice and sanctioned.

Brown says on one notable day during her time on workfare, she was expected to be in four places at once. She thinks that was probably a systems, or inputting, error. Whatever it was, she paid the price. ?I can't split myself in four, so those other three appointments in the system - I didn't make them.? She says that she was sanctioned several times in one year.

Brown was forced to apply for public assistance when she lost her job after working for 20 years in the banking industry. She was sacked after refusing to sell subprime mortgages. ?Being a woman of colour, I was approached for a promotion [to sell mortgages to people of colour] and I was fired because I turned it down.? She was a single mother with children in college. ?I applied for aid and I went into workfare. I began to find out how rigorous sanctions are.?

Find out she did. In addition to their workfare experiences, Brown and Samuels are organisers for the New York workfare-rights campaigning organisation Community Voices Heard - a member-based advocacy group made up primarily of women who've experienced welfare and workfare. The group is involved in grassroots organising, civic engagement and direct action campaigns. CVH is also trying to encourage the New York City Human Resources Administration (HRA), the city agency that administers welfare programmes, to move away from punitive sanctions (and cutting welfare rolls) and towards transitional benefits and jobs, and career-relevant training, for people on welfare.

Certainly, welfare advocates argue that workfare administrators sanction too enthusiastically. A 2008 CVH invetigation had some 68% of back-to-work applicants being issued with failure to comply notices while in the back to work programme. The same report found that 60% of all failure to comply notices "were found to be in error after HRA reviewed the cases at conciliation hearings." Sanctions are often wrongly applied, then.

The problem is that people have nothing to live on while they wait for appeal cases to be heard. As Samuels says - ?If you complain (about being sanctioned), the first thing out of their mouths is - you can apply for a fair hearing. [The problem is] - what does she [a welfare recipient] eat for a month while she waits 30 to 45 days to get her case her back on? You've got no money and you owe the landlord another month's rent." High sanction rates are generally a much-remarked-on problem in the US.

This is not a good time for that.

In this era of high unemployment, the US emphasis on cutting welfare rolls looks more and more disastrous. There are warning signs for the UK here. CBPP analysts observe in this paper that unemployment remains high ?and the prospects of finding jobs, especially for people with low skills, are poor. In August 2011, unemployment was 9.1 percent. Over 42.9% of the 14 million people who are unemployed have been looking for work for half a year or longer.? (That percentage figure is repeated for January 2012, with a drop in unemployment numbers). In austerity, some states are further tightening benefit-eligibility time-limits and cutting monthly cash-assistance benefits. As the academic John Krinsky said in previous articles, modern US welfare reform, with its 1996 introduction of lifetime time-limits for benefit eligibility, exclusion of immigrants and compulsory workfare and sanctions for non-attenders, prioritised welfare roll-reduction ahead of genuine job placement and creation.

For Brown and Samuels, CVH was the ticket out of welfare and workfare. They became CVH members, then organisers.

Before that, Samuels was an unpaid clerical workfare worker at a Medicaid office.

?I liked that job. I thought there would be a [paid] job at the end of it, but there wasn't.? That's not an unusual story for workfare workers. Estimates put just five percent of New York's workfare participants in actual paid jobs. Workfare workers must take any job ? even if they're unlikely to find a real one at the end of it - or risk losing their benefits. Brown found she was sent to maintenance jobs. ?Nothing ever turned into employment. I worked hard, saying - ?here is my resume. Why aren't you sending me more towards office positions?? A lot of time, these places ? they know how desperate you are. They are always dangling that idea of work.?

And, says Samuels, there is always that threat of sanctions. Lose your welfare cheque in this environment and you're in an awful place. That can be no different in the UK.

OP posts:
ChickenLickn · 16/02/2012 00:36

Here are some of the unpaid positions on offer under workfare. www.dgjobs.co.uk/workfare.php

Can you find your job on here?

OP posts:
carernotasaint · 16/02/2012 00:59

Lots of care jobs on there arent there?

CardyMow · 16/02/2012 01:02

No. 55 Gets me. 'February Work trial'. That knid of insinuates that there will be a March work trial. And an April work trial. And a May work trial. A revolving door of unpaid labour, done month-by-month. That depresses me. As do the sheer amount of retail positions on there. There is NO-ONE out there who can tell me that this ISN'T going to limit the employment opportunities for people who have previously worked in retail, and are currently unemployed but seeking work in retail.

Most of their jobs are going to Workfare participants. Sad. And, within a short period of time, THEY will then be put on the Workfare programme, when they are unable to find a job. Because the jobs they would have done are being filled with free labour. So they can get the job as unpaid labour, but not as a paid employee.

I am Angry and Sad about this. And worried. This will affect ME personally, as the only work I can do now is retail.

carernotasaint · 16/02/2012 01:11

Its fkin depressing isnt it Hunty. Its a complete FUCK UP. And that list is shockingly long and extensive.
Tell you what though....im willing to bet that there are some right wingers on here who will object to paying extortionate fees for their loved ones who are in care homes when they see that some of the work in those care homes is being done without costing the home anything!

CardyMow · 16/02/2012 01:19

Cleaning. Hospitality. Retail. Care work. Warehouse assistants. Administrative assistants. Dental Nurse. Cooks. Florist. Relationship manager (?). Fencer. Fabric dyer. Laundry operatives. Telephone appointment makers. Hair stylist. Artistic designer. Postmen/women. Nursery Nurse. Lifeguard. Out-of hours club assistant (Bouncer?). Picture framer. Window cleaner. Mechanic. Receptionist. Lottery agent. Diesel Technician. Baker. Valeter. Case maker. Lab Technician. Labourer. Upholsterer. Support worker. Barber. Flyer distributer. Plumber/heating engineer. Classroom assistant. Welder.

Some of these aren't basic, no training required jobs either. So you can assume that they will send the plumber whose business has folded due to lack of credit from the banks to do the plumbing/heating engineer one. So he goes from owning his own business, to doing the work for £67.50 a week.

That's bloody CHILLING. It looks TOTALLY ideological now. A way of circumventing the NMW laws, and usual employment laws, for anyone not in the top 10% or wherever they have set the arbitary figure.

Care worker - would YOU want a care worker who was being FORCED to be there if YOU were the elderly or disabled person being cared for?! Would you want your elderly parents, or disabled dc, cared for by someone forced to be there because it is be there or your family starves?

Lab technician - often requires a degree!

Mechanic - requires training. Unemployed mechanics being sent to do their old job for £67.50/wk anyone?

That list gives me nightmares!

CardyMow · 16/02/2012 01:21

If I was made to do Workfare as a postie - I'd shred each and every flipping letter before posting the shreds through each door. (Well, I probably wouldn't at first, but I sure would in the end!!).

carernotasaint · 16/02/2012 01:24

Hunty i hate to say this but if they start forcing people into workfare care work it is not unfeasible that we could soon have a case much like what happened at Winterbourne View. You are absolutely right. It is CHILLING.

solidgoldbrass · 16/02/2012 01:59

How can anyone think that a scheme is OK when it allows huge profitable corporations to profit further by replacing their paid staff with conscripted labour paid for by the taxpayer?

dandelionss · 16/02/2012 10:46

I think it is disgusting.Working as an unpaid intern in a professional job is completely different.How much experience and skill do you need to op[erate a checkout or stack shelves?
Also every workfare worker + an employed position gone!

ChickenLickn · 16/02/2012 11:17

Wow the Tesco facebook page is being plastered with complaints and protests about this!

www.facebook.com/tesco?sk=wall&filter=12

OP posts:
TattyDevine · 16/02/2012 11:34

Where I come from they make you get up at 5am to dig wetbeds for the railway and such like for 12 hours a day so compared to a cushy retail job which might lead to a permenant position or at least 6 months of retail on your CV which means you could almost definitely pick something up elsewhere it aint too bad...

ChickenLickn · 16/02/2012 11:52

These people are not criminals tatty. Hmm

OP posts:
limitedperiodonly · 16/02/2012 11:53

Haven't read the whole thread so apologies if someone has posted this about A4e which is one of the companies organising the DWP's workfare scheme.

There are so many grounds on which to criticise the scheme I'm not going to go into details.

A list would include: a badly-run company with a questionable board set-up, no clear objectives for the scheme, poor results, poor or non-existent supervision from the DWP, no formula for remuneration vs results, no checks to ensure that public money is well-spent, no way of getting public money back.

A4e isn't the only one.

I'm completely with you OP

ChickenLickn · 16/02/2012 11:56

Thanks limitedperiodonly.

There is a petition to the government to stop this abuse:

epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/29356

OP posts:
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