to be a bit confused by the moaning about 'cliques'

[bejeezus]

there has been quite a few threads during my time on MN,both in AIBU and in Relationships complaining about cliques,usually in a 'school run' context or on-line.

I'm not denying that the school-run is a fairly un-pleasant social phenomenabut what really is a clique? do they exist? Arent they just friendship groups? ANd what even are they? Its not a club with membership. Itsjust friends who have friends in common. the more friends you have in common the more centralto 'the group' you become. It follows that if you are friendlywith oneor two people,then you would appear to be on the periphery. You may or may not be invited to social gatherings depending on who organised it and whether you are freinds with that individual.

Friendships exist because the people enjoy each others company/have a laugh/have interests incommon/support each other. People are not friends so that they can make the people they are not friends with feel excluded/uncomfortable/miserable. Having many friends doesnt mean you are a complete bitch, it normally indicates that you are quite a nice/friendly/happy/positive/caring person.

What do the people who moan about 'cliques' want the other people to do? Stop having friendships so they feel better about themselves? Limit their number of friendships? Only be friends with them? From my POV the ones berating cliques are doing it from anenvious stance, because THEY want to be included? So if they were included would a clique then be deemed acceptable?

I don't write this as someone in the middle of a big friendship group BTW

I'm not good at the whole group thing and prefer friendships on a one to one basis. I run a mile from "cliques". I have been in a couple of friendship groups before and both got a bit nasty, with some group members saying unpleasant things about others, plus I just don't feel comfortable in a big group of people.

The one exception to this is my group of friends that I was at school with; we are all still close and meet up regularly. It's not cliquey though as anyone is free to bring other friends if they wish.

Hmm. This is a tricky one. From personal experience, I have been told I haven't been invited to nights out because they were couples things (I am not in a couple). So, I suppose, that means I am not in the set of couples. It's all Venn diagrams in the end, with psychology to boot. If you are minded by it, it's a clique. If you are not minded, or are invited, it's not an issue. I took it as a compliment, as meaning I am a massively attractive vamp, who might break some instantiation of coupledom. :o

kleptronic

OP has it spot on. Have often quietly thought these thoughts at the mention of cliques.

Some of my friends are a clique. They truly believe that they are above other people and are quite vocal about it. They operate using tactics I remember from school, like reward (letting you hang with them, and letting you know how lucky you are) and punishment for falling out of line. My longest shunning was 2 years. And quite an open shunning it was! I was regularly reminded that they were ignoring me... They call themselves The Princesses but are referred to by others as The Coven. They believe that they have fans! That people expect them to make appearances at social events or no-one will have fun. But they refuse to mix with new people so I find them embarrassingly anti social. I have seen people be really hurt by them though. As a united force they take pleasure in crushing people. Individually they are just a bunch of averagely nice girls though. It's a strange thing.

Beamae - They sound awful!

But most of the talk about "cliques" on mn are about groups of friends where they talk to the OP, but maybe the OP doesn't get invited to things they later find out others went on.

I have a group of friends. Some are much closer to each other than others. Some are on the edge and known well by perhaps one other person but not others. And some don't get on and are trickier individuals in larger groups. So not everyone gets invited to everything.

If we are going out on the town for a drink we don't invite x who tends to be openly disapproving of people drinking what she sees as too much (any more than 1 glass of wine) or y who is prett serious and doesn't fit in with a night of "having a laugh". If smaller group and f is invited who is lovely but blunt, we don't tend to invite g as she is sensitive and there will probably end up being upset before the end of the evening.

Group dynamics are important. some smaller groups of people work well and others don't. It doesn't always mean you like particular people better, but it is what works. And sometimes you want to do something social with those who you are closest to.

baea

How old are they?!

To be honest, they would carry no weight round these parts. No one would be vying for their attention. You've lost nothing by being shunned by people like that.

Quite right bejeezus, I was embroiled int the disaster that was that thread the other day. I tried to say what you said, but I was flamed for clearly being part of a grotesque, bitchy, clique & then anything I said to further explain my point of view was deemed defensive or an admission of guilt.

I'd never dream of being nasty or excluding anyone as a deliberate, nasty action, BUT, I am closer to certain people & I don't always want to socialise in a large group. It's a bit overwhelming.

My friends & I have lots in common but enough differences not to be boring. I don't fit in to every group, nor would I expect to. I guess this is true for everyone, but it seems that not everyone on here can accept this.

I've been on the outside in the past, I just accepted it & walked away. I think that it is in these circumstances some people view this as a clique. I see this as a fact of life.

I don't consider cliques and friendship groups as the same thing.

To me, a clique is a group who can be fairly unfriendly towards others and slightly intimidating. They will not 'allow' others to join their conversation and can be pretty openly hostile to those not in their 'gang'. In my experience half of them don't even like each other very much, they may just have the right job, husband or house.

Friendships groups are people who enjoy each others company and are happy for others to join them.

The Princesses? And these are grown women?
Blimey. Someone has been watching too many teen films (not you Beamae).

Bejeezus, I have been friends with a group for a few years, we all went to toddler groups and children went to pre school together and we socialised and went out for meals occasionally.
I have not been invited to a number of social events recently, last week I went to a pampered chef type party, just to show my face, as being the kind person I am I'm trying to give the "group" (which I'm fairly certain is one person "in charge") the benefit of the doubt that they're not inviting me to evening events as I have a young child who doesn't sleep. This one particular person was quite happily talking about how seven of them were going for a meal during the week. At least some of the others looked embarrassed that I was there.
I think part of the problem is that I offended her when she complained about how her pfb had been treated at school in one incident as I said that I would probably have done what the teacher did and also I'm more than happy to talk to everyone including people on, ya know, benefits and younger, single Mums
So it's petty and I still talk with them as it's a small class and I don't want it affecting my child's friendships but i still find it somewhat hurtful :(

I think I've been pretty lucky to have not come across a clique As you describe it moveslikejagger since school in that case. I can't imagine an adult group behaving in that way, it seems bizarre, although I'm perfectly prepared to accept that it does happen. Perhaps I just don't move in the right (wrong?) circles.

However, I think that a number of people who define a group as cliquey on here, do so simply because they've not really clicked (unfortunate word!) & don't become close friends with anyone in the group.

Descriptions of perceived cliques sound less like a clique as you describe it & more like a group who know each other well and have a lot in common & therefore spend more time with each other, only inviting others to wider group activities. From reading posts on here people often perceive this as unfair & bitchy of the other women. IMO it's different to being deliberately excluded & is something that should just be accepted. You can't be everyone's best friend.

I liked the example unthread of friendship relationships being like a venn diagram, that seems to cover what I consider normal group & wider group dynamics. Some people are just more sensitive to what they're excluded from than what they're included in.

It's still smarting with me that a social evening arranged by school Mums was cancelled without me ( and a few others out of the clique) knowing. It was arranged by email but not cancelled by an email that included everyone. I did approach one Mum about it but was told it wasn't her fault someone else organised it and her child had a fall so couldn't be expected to have told everyone.

It may not be intentional but it is selfish.

I do agree with you in part op and cheekyseamonkey but sadly I think there will always be groups where some people are happy to exclude others, even those who were previously really good friends and can't see what has changed. ;)
It also would seem, in my experience, that the women who do this would be / are the first people to moan/complain if anything vaguely similar happened to their dc.

YANBU Bejeezus.

I agree.

I still sometimes feel 'left out' in the playground but the rational, grown up side of me immediately takes over and reminds myself everyone has moments like this and just because a group of mums are chatting, or are good friends, they are not intentionally leaving anyone else out!

I loathe threads where OP talks about groups of 'bitches' at the school gate - it's ridiculous. People are just people and in general are perfectly nice if you make an effort to say hello. I live in 'pushy parent' central in London and I still have never come across these mythical cliques!

Princesses?? Good Lord, I'd be running a mile? Sounds like classic pack behaviour. I've been on the outside of most of these sort if things too as I don't do pandering to the individual that seems to be the nucleus of them. I was pretty much ignored by my Uni study group for nearly 3 years. It was only in the latter part where optional courses broke up the original groupings that things got better. I will chat to anyone at nursery pick up time, I don't like seeing people looking miserable by themselves either.
I'm dreading the school run though as its possible that we could be viewed as a clique as which ever school they go to, we already know parents of children already there very well at this could be mis-construed.

YABU to be confused. Cliques are selective, exclusive and delight in ostracising and excluding based on very shaky rules. Friendship groups are inclusive but can very easily become cliques. If you've never been bullied or shunned by a group, you may not appreciate the difference

Beamae, I knew a group like that once. One of them openly used to say she felt she and her husband were our (small!) town's answer to the Beckhams!

There IS a difference between a clique and a tight group of friends. I've been in a clique (I was a bit dim about it to be honest, and lonely, didn't realise they were so bloody awful as human beings until they bit me) and its very different to my current tight group of mates.

I think the difference is simply attitude. And being grown up!

An example of the difference would be that in my friendship group, we don't bitch about each other, we only talk about others if we're concerned, or in a positive light. In the clique, as soon as someone left the room it was claws out... on a coffee morning, these women were pawing over one woman's new cardigan, when she left the room they nicknamed her Hagrid (was quite funny, and almost honest, it was the GLEE with which it was said that was cringey).

Another example would be the schoolgate scenario. My friendship group will say hi to anyone, talk to anyone, none of us feel the need to butt into other's conversations, nor will we gravitate solely to our mates or ignore other people. The clique would quite literally frogmarch you to their group, interupt your conversation, even do the whole 'evils' thing if you didn't go and stand with them.

Best out of it. If you're in one, and not Queen Bee or spineless, get out. Its false friendship.

Tight groups of grown up pleasant mates? THAT is lovely.

What moveslikejagger said.

When I first joined the local playgroup here, there definitely was a clique running it. And they were very exclusive, closed ranks to chat (literally sat in a tight circle so that others couldn't join in by accident) and openly looked down their noses at non-clique members. Thankfully they all left the next year to set up their own more exclusive playgroup, presumably with vetted parents who fit into their social criteria.

Those very few of us who were left (4) rebuilt the playgroup to be an open and friendly place, where everyone chats to everyone but still there are people who prefer to chat to certain ones rather than others - that's fine, that's normal - but NO ONE gets left out in the cold as though they're not good enough to be there.

Beamae - they sound horrific and like some kind of highschool bitch group who I wouldn't want to know anyway.

That's so funny, lequeen. Sounds like something the group of women I knew would do!