to think the term 'normal delivery' should be banned from use by medical professionals?

[maxpower]

I had to have an emcs with DD and was devastated by it. But what continued to upset me was the way other people referred to VBs as being 'normal' - as if I was somehow abnormal because of what had happened to me. I think it'd lessen the feeling of failure that can come with emcs or assisted deliveries if the term 'normal delivery' wasn't used. They could be called 'independent deliveries' or 'unassisted deliveries' instead.

"But nobody's asking for the word 'normal' to be banned"

Did you read the thread title?

Arf, SoupDragon; how unfortunate

To be fair though, even the OP says "should be banned from use by medical professionals"- not asking for the word to be banned from the English language.

My point is that the word 'normal' is not in itself offensive, but is in this context due to its inaccuracy and pejorative nature.

When I was pregnant, and browsing the internet about birth, I came across a lot of entries about the importance of referring to vaginal birth as normal birth. So for some people it is definitely not just about mathematics.

However, despite that, I think changing the terminology would be like using Farrow & Ball paint on a condemned slum.

I don't have normal eyesight, but I wouldn't mind if someone said so. But I can imagine myself prickling like a hedgehog if someone said that about my labour, even though I think judgment of labour is ridiculous.

It's not the word that's the problem. It's the cultural attitude attached. I am honestly convinced that vaginal delivery could be called filligilop and a cs tijigra, and women would be feeling shit in 20 years' time about having had a tijigra.

Maybe I'm just tired and cross. Maybe tomorrow I'll come bouncing on to the thread, convinced that removing "normal" will make a meaningful difference.

YANBU "Normal" is not 'normal' correct terminology. It is vague and assuming. And "delivery" is crappy as well! Hate them both. Have deleted the rest of my rant as I may regret it in the daylight hours!!!!

YANBU. Any delivery is normal in my opinion. It gets the baby into the world - that's the aim of the game :) But, it's not correct medical terminology.

"Vaginal" wouldn't be appropriate in these circumstances because "normal" refers to a birth without ventouse, forceps etc. Lots of vaginal deliveries aren't classed as "normal".

Normal refers to the biological norm, surely, rather than the most common experience?

So yes, a "normal" birth in that context is one that has no induction/ instrumental delivery/ episiotomy etc.

Which means that most births nowadays are not normal.

hackmum, that's what I'm trying to say (and you are too!) Vaginal isn't the same as 'normal' in the medical profession, even though most people on this thread think you can use the phrases interchangeably. 'Normal' in the medical context tends to mean vaginal and no instrumental delivery. So, we have a) 'normal' b) vaginal and intrumental and c) CS. It is confusing and not a helpful term.

No idea if being induced comes into it either.

Leave aside the emotive, 'all these words are so loaded' bit of it all.

If you ask someone 'Did you have a vaginal delivery?' they will instantly be able to say Yes or No. It is clear what is being asked.

If you ask someone 'Did you have a normal/natural delivery?' approximately six out of ten will probably reply 'What do you mean by that?' before being able to answer. The ones that can answer instantly will be the two/three that had a CS who yes, can assume that this isn't a good descriptor of a CS, and the one/two who had a totally straightforward, no epidural no intervention birth.

The rest of those who birthed vaginally but who had

• intervention (ARM etc.)
• instrumental birth
• epidurals

will have to clarify if their situation is what you class as normal or natural, because technically the above treatments are definitely not normal for birth or natural ful stop.

So yes, both of those words display a poor use of language and are thus inappropriate if the question you want an answer to is 'Did your baby come out of your vagina?'

Tethers - I suggest you Google "euphemism ttredmill" - it is actually a well desribed part of semantic shift in language.

Btw if you all think "normal" is a poor choice, just be glad that they don't differentiate between birth types via "standard deviations" :o

Btw "Normal" was used as a euphemism for "Vaginal" originally, or so my MiL who was a ward Sister tells me

Surely if medical professionals are to go around having to spout lots of extraneous medical terminology so as not to upset people then how the feck are any babies going to get born

I'm sure terminology is used that the majority of the public will understand, whether it be colloquial terms or proper medical jargon the purpose is to ensure that the patient can comprehend what has happened in the course of their treatment

But you can leave aside the (perfectly viable) discussion about upsetting people and insidious use of euphemisms etc. etc. and it's still quite clear that both of these words don't do the job if what you want to know is was a baby born vaginally. If you ask a question and a common reply to it is 'What do you mean by that?' then the words you used aren't up to scratch.

Surely that's the point that the vast majority of 'YANBU' people on this thread are making, and the fact that the thread itself is full of people discussing what normal or natural might/could/should mean for birth proves that point!

Euphemism, colloqualism, whatever, the words don't properly or clearly describe what's being asked, 'vaginal' does.

'Surely if medical professionals are to go around having to spout lots of extraneous medical terminology so as not to upset people then how the feck are any babies going to get born' - exactly! - but, err, the problem is the other way round!

If the point you're making is that terminology can be confusing and thus waste time - yup, that's exactly what using a vague word like 'normal' does. Prompts another question or a big discussion - 'Err what do you mean by that? - I mean, I was induced and had forceps, but not a CS, is that the same... do you mean that the baby came out of me foof or do you mean did I not have any drugs or...' etc.!!

I remember going to a birth group meeting when pregnant, the title of the talk was 'Natural Birth - Still Possible In Hospital' or something like that. What they meant, obviously, was a birth which was un-interfered with - presumably no epi or monitoring and controlled by the woman. That was their definition of natural!

These words mean totally different things to different people.

I came back today to see how this thread had moved on, but I wasn't going to post again. However, I have to respond to bobbledunk:

'The op is miserable because she has wrongly convinced herself that she is a failure. By sympathising with her, I would be agreeing with her assessment. I'd rather try change her mind so she can learn to be happy with the outcome of her child's birth. She is perfectly entitled to ignore me and continue blaming the word 'normal' for all her problems if she wants.'

How rude are you exactly? I'm not miserable. I don't have 'problems' as you blithely state.

Looking back at all this, if I hadn't made any reference to my personal experience in the opening post, this whole discussion may have been a lot different. I'm disappointed that so many posters have focused on their presumption that I feel like a failure and have unresolved issues relating to my DDs birth. I didn't want to have to justify what I said about my own experiences, but in a nutshell, I was devastated to have an emcs as all my hopes for how my labour would go had been blown out of the water and I felt I had been turned into a lump of meat that the mw and drs had done what they wanted with. It's ridiculous for anyone to try to imply or infer that I should just have been grateful that DD and I survived. Of course I am and I recognise that without the emcs we wouldn't have. But it doesn't mean I had to be jumping for joy at how it all went at the time.

I should have opened the discussion by asking - why do hcp's use the term 'normal delivery' - is there such a thing? I personally don't think any delivery is 'normal'. Each of them are highly individual experiences that can have positive and negative elements for the mother.

Maybe the answer is to discourage hcps from giving any description - rather than asking "did you have a normal delivery?" maybe they should be encouraged to ask, "how have your previous labours gone?" or "how have your previous babies been delivered?" Surely a question phrased like that would actually encourage women to share more details of their previous experiences and open dialogue.

"I'm disappointed that so many posters have focused on their presumption that I feel like a failure and have unresolved issues relating to my DDs birth."

Perhaps they did so because you said in your OP that you were "devastated" by having an EMCS; and that the use of the word 'normal' "continued to upset" you; and not using that term would "lessen the feeling of failure that can come with emcs"?

It isn't that much of a presumption, given how you phrased your OP.

YABU really. It's natural to use the most obvious term - and 'normal birth' is just what would most easily spring to mind.

Anything else forces people to jump through mental hoops before speaking.

If i'm asked if I had a normal delivery then I say yes with DS and no with DD ( EMCS), end of, no great puzzle with medical terminology and all that

I dont need to get into the definitions of 'normal' and query what normal delivery is, that for us to do on MN, to discuss the semantics but to the healthcare professional normal=vaginal.

If you need to make more of a deal about your delivery then fine, just dont get offended when people try to put it in layman's terms

I used to get upset about the use if normal conception. But that said a lot about my processing of the whole infertility experience. Don't mind now. Apparently "pleasant lady" in my consultants letter doesn't mean I'm a nice person-just shorthand for cooperative and listens to advice. Sometimes medical terminology crosses over and uses everyday words.