is this a racist view or justified economics.

[ilovebabytv]

Mother is worried about her job. She left school aged 15 (as you could years and years ago) and worked in a fish hoose (as we say in Scotland :)) Then she became a SAHM for the best part of 20 years. When little brother was older he went back to work, first in local factory and then for last 8 years as a cleaner for a subcontractor. So pretty much always unskilled manual labour. Recently through a disability (she has suspected arthritis in her hands) she has became unable to do heavy lifting which has affected a small part of her cleaning. Was left a written letter from her boss to the effect of if she couldn't do all her job then she had to get a letter from her gp to sign her off. Mother is now panicking as she is just under the threshhold for sick pay and thinks that she is going to lose her job and as she put it "so they can replace me with a polish person". So (sorry thats a long back story) is it racist to think that someone should not get an unskilled job because they are an immigrant? At first I did think it was racist, not getting job based on your nationality but the more i thought about it, the more I agreed that unskilled jobs where there is no shortage of unskilled local/british people, well that job should go to them. I dont know, which is why I am asking you lot!

Unskilled jobs, like any jobs, should go to the best applicant. It shouldn't make any difference where that person comes from. We've all got bills to pay, and we all deserve a fair wage for a fair day's work.

I think it's fuck all to do with polish immigrants and the GP can give her a fit
Note saying she can work but just not lift heavy things...

The happy face of capitalism, where one set of poor people blame another set of poor people for working for even less money and benefits instead of blaming the system that makes a few very rich. It's not about immigration, it's about racism, poverty and money.

Perhaps Scotland will go independent and leave the EU? Would that be a good thing, do you think? Sean Connery thinks so.

There are two issue here that your mother is mixing up.

First question. Is it right your mother will lose her job if she cannot physically do it anymore? So long as the employer is treating her fairly and within the law then the employer can let her go as the employer needs someone who can physically do the job. She is not being let go so that they can give her job to a Polish person.

Second question. Is it right to to have Polish people coming to the UK and taking jobs here? So long as they are being paid minimum wage or above and the employer is adhering to the law and local people are not being excluded from applying then there is no problem in my view.

I think the job should go to the British person, because if they become unemployed, the state has to pay benefits. It makes sense to me to keep people off benefits and save the country money, if possible.

That's presuming the state doesn't pay benefits to the Polish person, in which case it doesn't make a difference.

I do think your mum needs to get her doctor's note.

the job should go to the person most suitable out of all the applicants.
unfortunately it would seem that in many cases of low paid, unskilled jobs the only applicants are non english.

So whilst it may appear to some that "foreigners are stealing our jobs" it is less that they are taking jobs from Uk nationals and more so that they are mopping up jobs that aren't wanted.

Unfortunately, we are in the EU so we cannot stop Polish workers applying for jobs here. If people beleive that UK jobs should only go to UK citizens then we would have to leave the EU. I believe we should for many reasons but not because I want to stop people coming here to work.

Alot of British people have the view I am not going to work for an extra 20 odd pound and think they are better off on benefits.

When people come over from another country they are not eliagable for benefits so will take these low paid unskilled jobs.

It is nothing to do with your mums illness

Think dm had gp appt earlier and I asked her to go see an employment specialist solicitor as most round here do first 30mins free at least. I understand thats a separate issue for the immigrants. Personally the more i do think about it the more I kinda lean towards an Australian style visa acceptance, i think this is where you have more chance of obtaining a work visa if you fall into a skills shortgage category?

separate issue from the immigrants issue. Oops.

Valar - to be fair I have heard anecdotally that employers tend to pick Polish workers over UK workers in some low paid jobs as they believe they are more likely to turn up, be better motivated and have generally attained a higher educational standard.

Obviously, that 'belief' can also be characterised as unfounded prejudice against British workers and actually would be a sort of 'reverse form of racism'.

Gosh that's an awful comment your DM made! If she lost her job, it wouldn't be because they wanted to give it to a Polish person (!), it would be because she couldn't perform the role. That would, of course, be sad, but certainly not the fault of the person that replaced her (or their country of origin)! I really hate how casually racist comments are thrown around. :(

My Polish friend works in retail and has a honours and upper degree and having worked with her myself I can tell you she was worth 10 of most of the other 'Biritish' workers there. But she worked hard because she has a good work ethic and is a good worker, i don't think it has anything to do with her being Polish! she was also progressed really quickly within the company because she was extremely capable

Personally the more i do think about it the more I kinda lean towards an Australian style visa acceptance, i think this is where you have more chance of obtaining a work visa if you fall into a skills shortgage category?

But Australia isn't in the EU and we are. Polish people don't need a visa to work here and the jobs should go to the best applicants. As others have said - for unskilled, low paid jobs Eastern Europeans are often the only applicants.

I think the comment your DM made is racist.

If she cannot do her job any more, then it is unfortunate but she would have to be replaced by someone who can do the job. It doesn't matter what nationality the person who replaced her is. What difference would it make to her anyway? She'd still not be doing her job...

In my workplace there are a whole host of different nationalities. Off the top of my head, there's Irish, Italian, Polish, South African, Greek and Spanish people that work with me, as well as British. They aren't paid any differently, nor can they do their job any better or worse because of their nationality.

What a stupid thing to say.

TD, my dm is not being intentionally racist. Her immediate supervisor for the last few years, is polish and it has became apparent that all posts that have needed to be filled have been given to polish workers. This doesn't justify her views but it certainly helps me understand it.

Is the consensus then that "British jobs for British workers" mindset is generally discouraged here on mn? TBH I can see both sides of the argument, not sure which camp id side with.

Not being intentionally racist doesn't change the fact that your DM was being racist though. I just find it terribly sad that people find that kind of comment in any way acceptable. It's never justified, and if your DM's supervisor is actually doing that, your DM should take the issue to her, not try to right perceived racism with a racist view.

Well she can do her job, just not one smallish part of it, which she says was not part of her original joblist. She was asked after a few years if she would do it, and she agreed she would try, and I think at the time she said that she did struggle. She has struggled to do it for about 5 years now but her hands have got progressively worse. If I am right in thinking, i believe her employer has to make reasonable adjustments to allow her to continue her work, and not just expect her to sign off sick. But i dont specialise in employment law and thats not really the main reason i started this thread.

Would it be possible for her to get an updated job description? It would be a starting point. I think reasonable adjustment entitlement only goes so far though. The employer really needs to know she can do the job in its entirety really. However if the requirements have changed I reckon she needs to establish whether they were changed officially. If she's been doing the revised job for some time they could argue a precedent has been set.

The UK does have a points system similar to Australia. It is very difficult to get a working visa, and nonEU nationals cannot work in UK without a visa.

The other thing is that if her boss is Polish and only ever gives jobs to Polish applicants she may well have a case against her employer if she can show her boss is deliberately discriminating against her because she is not Polish and using her mild disability as a pretext to hand her job to a Polssih worker.

If that is really the case her comments may well be justified and not motivated by racism. In fact, she would be arguing she is the victim of it.

Hard to prove and stressful to go through a Tribunal at her age.

As a second generation immigrant, I agree with your DM. Too few jobs, too many applicants. Increasing unskilled unemployed population is not going to help the economy.

And I'm very much a leftist, guardian reader. It seems you can't suggest an idea like this for fear of being branded "one of them bnp". Skilled, needed labour yes, but there are enough unskilled unemployed in the country.

In an ideal world the entire earths population could come live in the UK and merrily claim income support and housing benefit. But that's not how it works, is it.

We need to be trying to REDUCE unemployment, not increasing it by admitting more people into the country with nothing to offer.

And posters who say polish people work better are bring hideously racist themselves and should be ashamed.

how about looking at it from the other side? - if the all the germans thought like that I'd be buggered. Fortunately, within the EU we have freedom of movement for workers so as a British person in Germany, I can work. I still face obstacles from Germany for Germans types and also sexism sometimes, and I can tell you, it's shit. Prejudice is not ok.

Hard to prove and stressful to go through a Tribunal at her age

My dm is nearing 60 and you are spot on with that comment, it would be nigh on impossible for her to prove, dont think she'd qualify for legal aid and she just would not be brave/able enough to go though with a Tribunal.

Scheherezade

I'll have to admit the more I ponder this situation the more logic I find in what you are saying.