is this a racist view or justified economics.

[ilovebabytv]

Mother is worried about her job. She left school aged 15 (as you could years and years ago) and worked in a fish hoose (as we say in Scotland :)) Then she became a SAHM for the best part of 20 years. When little brother was older he went back to work, first in local factory and then for last 8 years as a cleaner for a subcontractor. So pretty much always unskilled manual labour. Recently through a disability (she has suspected arthritis in her hands) she has became unable to do heavy lifting which has affected a small part of her cleaning. Was left a written letter from her boss to the effect of if she couldn't do all her job then she had to get a letter from her gp to sign her off. Mother is now panicking as she is just under the threshhold for sick pay and thinks that she is going to lose her job and as she put it "so they can replace me with a polish person". So (sorry thats a long back story) is it racist to think that someone should not get an unskilled job because they are an immigrant? At first I did think it was racist, not getting job based on your nationality but the more i thought about it, the more I agreed that unskilled jobs where there is no shortage of unskilled local/british people, well that job should go to them. I dont know, which is why I am asking you lot!

Hmm. I live and work in France. A British friend who moved here because of her husband's work recently got a job for which there would be many reasonably qualified local candidates. If you think she sjhould have been banned from working then YANBU. If not then YABU.

It isn't racist it is xenophobic .

I think your comment is racist but I also think that your mothers employer is discriminating on the grounds of disability and that is what needs to be tackled from your mother's perspective. Your mother has arthritis which will not improve and is a disabilty under the equalities act 2010. Your mother's employers is therefore obliged to make reasonable adjustments to accommodate your mother and if it is only a small part of the job she cannot do then it woudl appear reasonable for those adjustments to be put in place.

The size of the employer will be important. If it is large then they will be obliged to make the adjustment - if they employ only very few cleaners the adjustments might be more difficult.

MoreBeta is correct.

Read his/her post.

Thats it. End of.

OP - does you mum need to have union representation for this. If so, has she got some?

Yes, it does work the other way around. It's simple logic, if a country (any country) has too few jobs and too many people competing for those jobs, increasing the unskilled population is only going to raise unemployment, and burden the economy. It's nothing to do with anyone being afraid of a race, or thinking they are second classed citizens, its just unfortunate fact. They could be polish, Chinese, American, Irish or from planet zogg.

My friend works in an English recruitment company specialising in hiring skilled German speaking workers. These people are needed, there is a shortage.

It's not the same as saying "all foreigners should keep away", its naive to think the UK can support billions of people out of work. The odd few yes, but we can't have an indefinite amount of people coming in expecting to find work. It's not "British jobs for British workers" its "let's deal with the millions struggling to find work as it is, who are relying on benefits".

Equally I think the gvmt needs to encourage our own youth and future workforces to gain skills through apprenticeships, nursing, dentistry etc.

You wouldn't find Germany causing something like the bombardier debaucle for example.

My friends company has an office in Germany, she says it is very difficult for non-German workers to find work there.

Your Mum is being racist. If she can't do her job then someone else has to and it makes no difference where they are from. It would have fuck all to do with your Mum who they hired.

Iusetoomuchkitchenroll, I have already said that my mother can do her job but struggles with a small part of it. Do you think all people with a disability, mild or otherwise, should be sacked if they cannot carry out 100% of their duties?

Scheherezade - a relative of mine married a French woman. He speaks French well, good qualifications. Just could not get a job in France basically because he is English.

It is pretty clear that in mainland Europe there is an informal barrier to free movement of labour despite EU rules because local labour unions and politicians exert pressure on firms to ensure good jobs go to locals.

As usual the UK implements the rules while other countries don't.

Scheherezade, if a country (any country) has too few jobs and too many people competing for those jobs, increasing the unskilled population is only going to raise unemployment, and burden the economy. This is the logic I arrive at. On one hand we have hordes of people on mn who are on benefits who say they are desperate for a job and go to pains to stress they are not 'benefit scroungers' there are just no jobs or they are not getting them, yet on this thread we have people saying that there are jobs available, but for some of these jobs british people just couldn't be bothered applying. TBH it leaves me

I'm probably playing devils advocate here - without intentional cause to wind up the readers.

(a) There is a certain genre of person who thinks minimum wage is beneath them.
(b) There is also a certain genre of person who thinks that any money earned is beneficial to them.
(c) we know there is 'black market economy' under lying that which is legal.
(d) we know some employers take advantage of that.

We can sterotype which is which. Not always true, but often is (hence sterotyping)

Sche: First of all, make your mind up if people are here to work or claim benefits.

Second of all, there isn't a set number of jobs in the uk, if more people work then more people will have money to spend which will create more jobs. Also, if more people work more taxes will be paid and the government can create more jobs.

I'm an EU immigrant and have recently started working, me working has given a local childminder full time work. We are now two people paying tax and who have more disposeable income to spend.

I think it depends on how essential the part if the job that can't be done actually is. If it means that the employer cannot provide a good service to the paying customer because an employee cannot do the job, then yes, I think it is fair enough for that person to be let go. Otherwise the business would suffer, and businesses don't exist to give people job security, they exist to make a profit.

I have worked with a few people from Eastern Europe, and without fail, every single one of them has an excellent work ethic and goes above and beyond what is expected of them. Sometimes to the point that they and their skills are exploited by the employer. I can understand why employers want to emply people like that, even though I agree that British people should have priority for British jobs. The fact is that British people don't have the same incentive to work that hard, so often they don't.

This will sound awful, but one of my fiends who works full time has had cleaners for years. She actively sought out a Polish cleaner this time because they do generally do the job better, and the cleaner she has now has shown that theory right.

money - not all working immigrants pay tax. every morning when i drive past wickes i see dozens of eastern europeans waiting to be picked up to do cash in hand work, work that once would have been given to some chap registered at the job centre. also, alot of working tax paying immigrants send most of their cash back to ie poland, they can save money by having lots live in one house.....

Sound to me like your mum is worried about losing her job and is lashing out.

not all working immigrants pay tax - not all people pay tax.

Oh boy, I just wrote a whole reply and lost it. But in essence it's this: MrsTerryPratchett is right. This is about the employer, not the hypothetical Polish immigrant, who just wants to work. If the employer is trying to sack your mum because of her disability, then she needs to see a trade union rep or a solicitor. Employers always look for the cheapest labour, and have done since industrialisation (immigrants and women were both driving down wages in the 19th century).

WRT cleaning jobs. When I spoke to the owner of the cleaning agency that I use she said the only people who apply for jobs with her now (admittedly she doesn't pay much more than minimum wage) tend to be recent EU immigrants. My friend who runs a chain of local shops says the same.

The 16-18yos who are unemployed who keep bleating on via the local newspaper about their crap job prospects don't bother.

I too am guardian reading and leftish but something does genuinely need to be done to reinstate a work ethic as it sadly seems to be missing amongst native Brits.

Yeah, I would agree I would like something to be done about the work ethics of some unemployed, I dont think its age specific although the younger generation may be more affected.

I need to point out my mother doesn't view non British people as 2nd class citizens or as any better or worse off as a human being as herself. I assume she thinks along the same lines as Scheherezade and like I have already said I can't disagree with the logic behind his reasoning.

If you ever have to start a question with 'Is this racist or...?' then chances are, yes, its racist.

lurkerspeaks: "I too am guardian reading and leftish but something does genuinely need to be done to reinstate a work ethic as it sadly seems to be missing amongst native Brits."

But that isn't the case here. The OP's mum wants to work. She clearly does have a work ethic but she has a disability. The issue is whether her employer is going to sack her and replace her with someone else (presumably because that person is cheaper, though that's not clear from the OP).

The whole business about this other person being Polish is a red herring. The real question is whether the employer is morally or legally right to sack the OP's mum so he can replace her with someone cheaper. The answer in both cases is no.

It's not about sacking one person to be able to employ someone cheaper. It's about one person having to be let go because they are simply no longer able to do the full job.

Those are two very different situations.

In an ideal world, disability would not make an employer want to let a person go, but businesses are there to make money. Unless the government starts putting more money into providing disabled people with the support they need in order to be able to do their jobs, businesses are going to lose money be employing people that are physically unable to do the job they were hired to do.

"It's about one person having to be let go because they are simply no longer able to do the full job."

Well, maybe. It's not clear from the OP how incapacitating her mother's disability is. The thing is, if she had a white-collar job, the employer could (and often would) find ways of accommodating her. The sad truth is that people in unskilled jobs often experience wear and tear as they get older and therefore unable to carry on doing the kind of physical work they have spent their working lives doing.

The irony is that if the OP's mum were forced out of work and onto benefits because few employers want to take on a person with a disability, there would no doubt be plenty of people on Mumsnet lining up to call her a benefits scrounger: "She only has arthritis. Surely there are lots of jobs she could do with arthritis" etc etc etc ad nauseam.

Fully agree with that! There's no easy answer unfortunately, someone somewhere will always miss out.