...to ask how you decide if someone is 'fat' ?

[MaisyMooCow]

Here

So the 'fat' passenger paying more argument continues.

My question is, how do you decide when someone qualifies for the 'fat seats'. What happens if you book a normal seat, get to check-in and they say 'Sorry madam but you're fat' . Are you expected to get on their scales for a weigh in?!!

I don't care in the slightest whether someone else is fat, as long as that person's adipose tissue isn't taking up 30% of the tiny, expensive space assigned by an airline for me to sit in for 13 hours. I imagine most people are the same.

The fact that someone might feel sensitive about their size doesn't entitle them to ask everyone around them to tiptoe around their feelings in every single situation, even at the cost of considerable personal discomfort. This isn't about 'discrimination' or 'prejudice', it's about cubic volume and available space.

Buses are another problem

But personally I don't find it too difficult to go a short bus ride, perched on one bum cheek to accomodate an overweight person/sprawled person next to me.

Plus, there are always the seats at the back that give more room.

What about on trains? I have been commuting by train for 14 years and the size of other passengers has become an increasing problem. I feel sorry for them I really do but I frequently have to stand as sitting for half an hour with a buttock hanging off the seat is worse for my back than standing. They also take up masses of standing room. It's not easy though is it?

What about on trains? I have been commuting by train for 14 years and the size of other passengers has become an increasing problem

seats are also becoming smaller, its noticeable if you get on the older carriages

The blatant disregard that some (not all) fat people have for the problems their girth causes for others is annoyng.
Two experiences stand out:

I have had the unfortunate experience of being wedged next to an extremely fat man on a flight from Brazil to London, he occupied at least a third of my seat and basically didn't give two fucks, snored throughout as well.

The worst was actually on a train from London to York with faulty air conditioning on a baking hot day. A similarly hefty woman plonked herself down almost pinning me up the window like a novelty Garfield cat, she also dripped sweat all over the place and spent most of the journey swigging from a two litre bottle of full fat Coke.

"The fact that someone might feel sensitive about their size doesn't entitle them to ask everyone around them to tiptoe around their feelings in every single situation, even at the cost of considerable personal discomfort. This isn't about 'discrimination' or 'prejudice', it's about cubic volume and available space."

At the risk of sounding fattist, I agree.

seats are smaller in some types of train yes. But normal sized people can fit into them without causing too much of an annoyance to others. As long as there isn't a 'large' person in one of them, then it's a complete bun fight (literally).

Surely airlines should make their seats bigger to accommodate their passengers?

Yes losing half your seat to someone else is unfair (I've been there) but it's not exactly the fault of the other passenger that the seats aren't big enough to accommodate them.

People are all shapes and sizes - airline seats are famously minimalist when it comes to space.

@HipHop but then prices would rise and everyone else would have to pay for them.

I am short and have to spend time and money getting off the peg clothes adjusted. Yes shops sould make them available in different lengths but it would cost them more so prices would rise. How woudl that be fair on other people?

I hate train travel these days. The seats are very close together & regardless of size, you can smell the breath of the person next to you, smell their clothes, hear their breathing & their bloody ipod if you haven't got your own on & if anyone so much as tries to read a paper, you are aware of every page that turns from the elbow that digs into you. For some odd reason, I mind the tube less, probably because years of conditioning have led me to expect to be penned in a way that if humans were any other kind of animal, LU would be reported to the RSPCA.

I don't think people are showing aggression to 'fat' people, merely their annoyance at the situation they find themselves in when they fly.

I think there is aggression here towards fat people - basically people here are saying fat people shouldn't fly. Think about how dreadful & embarrassing flying can be for someone who is overweight, knowing the seat will be tight, they may impact on their neighbours, how uncomfortable they will be for XX hours etc. They don't control the seat size and let's face it there is a HUGE difference between economy & business fares putting upgrades out of reach of most people.

If flying isn't to become sizest, airlines really need to address seat size and passenger comfort and space.

@tardis - so the world should be made to suit Mr & Mrs Average, and everyone else must pay a premium to be treated as an individual?

I think there is aggression here towards fat people - basically people here are saying fat people shouldn't fly

No, I think you'll find people are saying fat people should pay for wider seating if they can't fit entirely on the seats provided.

It's quite simple.

Yes losing half your seat to someone else is unfair (I've been there) but it's not exactly the fault of the other passenger that the seats aren't big enough to accommodate them.

Or they could pay for two or if they don't like that eat less and exercise more.

I realise that in a minority of cases there is a medical cause, but for the majority it is just laziness and greediness.

But HipHopOpotomus, EVERYTHING is made to suit the average person. I am 5ft1, and as someone else said, I have to pay to have everything taken up.

Honestly, it's not as if people need to be fat or they can't help it. Yes, yes, I know some people can't, but most people could lose some weight and then they wouldn't need to buy two seats on the plane.

I just can't see this as discrimination when it's something that could be changed.

"airlines really need to address seat size and passenger comfort and space."

And put their prices up as a result. This discussion is going round in circles.

Personally, I wouldn't object to paying a little more to get a comfortable seat on a plane, but how many others are able to do so?

For the record, I am not fat - but I think it is a dreadful thing to say that people are fat from laziness & greed. It is horribly judgemental & simply not true.

People are fat because they are quite literally addicted to carbohydrates. Insulin is the primary fat storing hormone. How do you stimulate insulin production in the body - by eating carbohydrates (in all their forms including sugar). People eat & drink cereals & sugars in quantities never before encountered in the millions of years that humans have existed on this planet & some people quite literally become addicted.

They eat carbs, their body produces vast amounts of insulin, the carbs are digested & stored & the insulin is still surging around their body looking for more carbs. This triggers the hunger response & they want to eat more. Fatness runs in families for a reason, usually because these families are super insulin producers. Carbs are the cheapest & most readily available form of food these days & medical advice tells people to stick to a low fat, high carb diet - even though that patently isn't working becuase people are getting fatter & fatter. Do you know the long term success rate for conventional diets is less than 1%.

Yes, there are a few other reasons for eating too much, such as medication & hideous childhood abuse - but the main reason is the over-storage of fat, due to the overproduction of insulin because of carb consumption.

We hear all the time how the average size of people (in the West at least) is increasing and has been since the 40's. If airline seats had also increased (rather than shrunk) in this time most of us would be just fine in our seats.

seats are smaller in some types of train yes. But normal sized people can fit into them without causing too much of an annoyance to others.

Only if Normal is defined as 5 foot 3 and wasp waisted. More reubenesque women and many men struggle just a bit.

So what you're saying, PostPellum, is that we should cater to them? I don't think that's helpful. After all, by being massively overweight, people are harming themselves.

We wouldn't say "oh but you should allow smoking on planes, some people are addicted" or "oh but you should be allowed to drink at work, some people are alcoholics, they can't help it".

If you are so fat you can't sit in an airline seat, then seriously, you need to think about doing something to lose weight. I'm sure it's not easy, but everyone knows by now that carbs are not the way to lose weight. By being so fat, they are setting themselves up for horrible health problems.

I think it is a dreadful thing to say that people are fat from laziness & greed. It is horribly judgemental & simply not true.

I don't care why someone is fat, it's just that I don't want 1/3rd of them on my seat.

No, I am not saying that I want to be squashed on an airline seat, or that they should get special dispensation. No one could be a bigger believer in taking responsbility for your own life than me & if that means paying for two seats because you are too big to fit in one, then so be it.

What I am saying don't accuse people of being fat because they are lazy and greedy - as was done by one poster further up. It is a dreadful thing to say, extremely rude & unkind & it is not true

Yes, there are a few other reasons for eating too much, such as medication & hideous childhood abuse - but the main reason is the over-storage of fat, due to the overproduction of insulin because of carb consumption. well put Post

You could argue that this over consumption of carbs, and change in our diet towards high simple carb foods, has fuelled a high percentage of our economic growth these last few decades. There is money in food lots of it, and money in making people fat.

So perhaps thin people, who hold shares (or their pensions hold shares) in Nestle, Cadburys, Warburtons, Birds Eye, heck even Tesco/Sainsburys etc etc etc could take some responsibility for the weight issues so many people struggle with (as they are profiting from these people) and pay a premium when they fly too.

Of course this would be ridiculous - but my point is we are all in this together.

The views expressed on MN in these "fattist" threads really make me feel very depressed about my fellow humans.

So perhaps thin people, who hold shares (or their pensions hold shares) in Nestle, Cadburys, Warburtons, Birds Eye, heck even Tesco/Sainsburys etc etc etc could take some responsibility for the weight issues so many people struggle with (as they are profiting from these people) and pay a premium when they fly too.

No. Just No.

My stock portfolio has no bearing on my right to have my full seat that I paid for for 9 hours on a plane.

Next you will be suggesting I pay the fee for their extra seat?

I actually eat a lot of the stuff on your list HipHop and I'm a size 10.
I do think a lot of posters here are being rather nasty about people who are overweight, but I still want to be comfortable when I travel.
I really think airlines, in fact all transport, should take into account that we are all shapes and sizes and adjust their seats accordingly.