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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to sit my neighbour down and ask him why he believes in God?

101 replies

ElaineBenes · 05/02/2012 23:21

I'm a reluctant atheist. I really want to believe in God and I've thought about it a lot but it just doesn't make any sense to me. I'm a pretty logical person and the logic doesn't add up.

So my neighbour is a doctor, must be quite scientific, right? And he's super-religious. We've never discussed it but I want to ask him over and ask him to explain to me why, but it's a quite a jump from chit chat about the weather and kids to the meaning of life!

OP posts:
GrimwigTheHeadEater · 07/02/2012 09:43

Ultimately the existence of suffering offers no evidence for or against god.

Maybe not (though I don't really buy your exploding babies argument), but it doesn't square up too well with the benign god Christians tend to believe in or the merciful and compassionate Allah. Quite a lot of cognitive dissonance needed to get round that one.

gremlindolphin · 07/02/2012 09:49

I had a major operation to remove a tumour and it turned out my amazing surgeon is really religious, he actually said to a mutual (his best) friend that he could feel the power of our friends' prayers helping peel the tumour away!! I have never asked him about it but I am very fascinated that someone so scientific is so religious too.

Snorbs · 07/02/2012 09:51

The existence of suffering offers no evidence for or against a non-interventionist god. Or a god that is not omnipotent, merciful and/or loving. Eg, some religions believe that god made the universe and then had no more involvement in what happened.

For a god that is interventionist, that answers prayers and performs miracles (eg the God of most forms of the Abrahamic religions) and is omnipotent, then for that god to sit back and observe the innocent suffering leads to some fundamental questions about his/her/its morality.

Shakey1500 · 07/02/2012 09:56

I know where you're coming from OP. I used to believe in God, got married in front of "God" etc then there was a gradual realisation, personal debate and ultimate acceptance that, logically, and it sat better with me, that there is no God. But it did make me feel a little sad. But unless a Godlike miracle happens or I have definitive proof, I will not believe.

I would also love an epiphany, then I can feel all fluffy and cosy about it. I can't see it happeming anytime soon though.

CailinDana · 07/02/2012 09:58

I don't think you necessarily have to believe in a God to believe in a sort of power that is bigger than ourselves. It's the kind of power you feel when you're in a large group of happy, positive people, like at a concert or a rally. I think that's partly the reason why people get such solace out of organised religion, - coming together with others who have openly stated that they believe the same thing as you do (which is the same all the people at a concert buying the same ticket) and then celebrating for a positive thing together is psychologically very powerful and healing. You can attend church services without truly believing - the sense of community and the ritual will be of benefit to you. And if there is a God, he/she will be glad to see you :)

trustissues75 · 07/02/2012 10:07

Interesting that you seem surprised that someone who is of a scientific nature would be at odds with also having a spiritual bent. (In no way criticising you btw) but it makes me curious. Do a lot of people who think that science and God (or whatever name one chooses for a higher being) believe that the two subjects have to be mutually exclusive? And I'd ask him...if he's obviously religious why not ask him about it? I think it's great that although you're an atheist that you're curious about other points of view

PosiePumblechook · 07/02/2012 10:11

Religion is clever, it absolves God's responsibility for all the shit that happens and the good stuff is God's will. Faith is not something you can 'get'. It is something that you have or you don't. I think you have to be a child to believe in god.

trustissues75 · 07/02/2012 10:15

Posie - I can see where you're coming from, but isn't that a little sweeping? Perhaps a little unfair? I believe in God - and I don't believe that things happening are God's will (heck, I would never ever dare to say "It's God's will" as a throw away comment of comfor to someone who is having an awful time of it) Human beings have free will, stuff happens - our choice of how we deal with stuff is up to us. Saying that God (or the Devil) have control over things that happen and stuff we choose to do absolves us of any responsibility - and to my mind, that's not what religion is about.

PosiePumblechook · 07/02/2012 10:20

I just don't in without need an adult can find God, especially not without a belief as a child. So I get people praying when facing adversity and believing that god comes through for them, but not otherwise.

PosiePumblechook · 07/02/2012 10:21

Auto correct. Buy not in

sunshineandbooks · 07/02/2012 10:21

I am an atheist. I've spent a lot of time thinking about it. I am not evangelical about my atheism and while I feel organised religion has a lot to answer for, I believe faith (which is something different) is a matter for individuals. I do not seek to impose my views on others, nor will I accept their views being imposed on me. We all need our own philosophy to get through life, and a belief in God is just one of those. Whatever floats your boat! Smile

However, I'd ask you this: Why are you a reluctant atheist? What are you looking for that you were hoping to get from religion and feel you will miss out on if you accept atheism? Have you read much about atheism? Many people make the mistake of assuming that it offers a bleak, amoral view of life with no meaning. I find the very opposite. It is a liberating, empowering way to view the world that puts a great deal of emphasis on people's basic humanity. It makes you realise that people can truly alter the world for the better without any form of divine intervention or spiritual guidance, which I find immensely uplifting.

numbertaker · 07/02/2012 10:28

Instead of asking your neighbour, why don't you ask God. God if you are there reveal yourself to me. If you are truly seeking, he will. I know he did to me.

PushyDad · 07/02/2012 10:31

As a singleton I had a loose circle of friends drawn from my evening class. Early on in the friendship one of the girls invited everybody to her friend's house for a 'party'. When we got there we discovered it was a Bible class! Its like they are timeshare salesmen i.e. get the punters in by whatever means and even if we make just one sale then that is a result.

The girl tried other times to invite us to 'social' events but we got wise to her tricks and made excuses. Eventually I got tired of making excuses so I told her that when it was the right time for God to enter my life then I will feel It. That worked whereas repeated 'I don't believe' simply made her more determined to convert me.

Someone we know had a heart attack (he was 40), probably brought on by stress (he had a highly paid job in the City). The way that Christian Wife spun it, it was God's way of telling him to slow down and spend more time with his family???

God gave us free will and that is why he lets us kill each other but he will intervene to make her husband come home at regular hours. Confused

Religion, like your diet, bowel movements and varicose veins, shouldn't be general conversations you have with people you aren't related to :o

DizzyDizzyDinosaur · 07/02/2012 10:31

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

trustissues75 · 07/02/2012 10:35

Pushydad - oh good grief, you were unfortunate enough to meet one of "those" Christians...they're worse than timeshare salesmen. I spent six years in the states, mainly in very evangelical areas - I thought I'd died and gone to Hell.

Shakey1500 · 07/02/2012 11:02

numbertaker can I ask how God revealed himself to you? Genuine interest. Was it during a particularly difficult time etc?

PushyDad · 07/02/2012 11:16

you were unfortunate enough to meet one of "those" Christians

Are there any other kind?

Just kiddin' I know of Christians who go to places like Africa, to deliver aid or to comfort/help the poor/diseased. I have the greatest of respect for those 'type' of Christians. But at the same time I have met many who use Religion as an emotional crutch.

The dad of the girl I was talking left her and her mum and sister for another woman. The Other Woman didn't want the dad to have anything to do with his previous family so he cut off any ties he had with this girl. This emotionally scarred her and to this day she still can't talk about it without tears. Well, like numbertaker, God 'revealed' himself to her at some point.

As for Heart Attack Wife, she hasn't seen her mum in years coz she hasn't forgiven her mum, for what I don't know (aren't Christians supposed to be a forgiving lot?)

trustissues75 · 07/02/2012 11:33

Are there any other kind?

Thankfully, yes :o

Forgiveness - bloody hard thing to do. I struggle with it every day.

Emotional crutch - I suppose anything, including faith/religion etc can be used as an emotional crutch - depends on the end service user I suppose.

PosiePumblechook · 07/02/2012 11:38

I've been invited to lots of things, from the Alpha course to Baking bread with God.....

It really puts me off people, I never invite people to my house to inflict atheism upon them!!

trustissues75 · 07/02/2012 11:46

Posie - it must be very anoying to have people who know you're views deliberately go out of their way to convert you. I have two good friends, but they are considerably more "right wing baptist" kind of christians than I am. Last week they came to visit me and I got the distinct impression they were trying to get me to come back to church, and that it was because my DP is agnostic. And then, they steered the discussion to reikki, yoga, reflexology (all things that interest me)...I have a feeling we wont' be friends much longer unless they begin respecting that my "Christianity" is different to theirs but deserves respect (I don't tell them that something they happen to believe that doesn't fit with my viewpoint is going to lead them "down the wrong path"). It's really none of their business.

PushyDad · 07/02/2012 12:03

God 'revealed' himself to a relative of mine some years ago. The first Christmas was a bit embarassing. 'Why don't you come over to our house on Boxing Day for lunch?' she said. Her son, who hasn't seen The Light, warned us that his mum had lined up some people from her church to talk to us so we got the son to pass on the message to say that we changed our minds and were too busy.

She got her own back recently. We wanted DCs to go to this very good Catholic school (feel free to call me a hypocrite) and I was hoping that my relative would give me that thing that says I was a regular church go-er (she is like the admin person at her Church) Got shot down stone cold dead.

Gawddammit. All we had to do was to give up our Sundays for 3 years and we could have saved over a £100k in school fees :)

Shakey1500 · 07/02/2012 12:08

PushyDad if you're a hypocrite, then so am I Wink Fortunately I had better luck as my Roman Catholic cousin is on the board of guvorners

trustissues75 · 07/02/2012 12:08

Perhaps suggest that the 100K could be very well used elsewhere...perhaps a new church roof? :o

entropygirl · 07/02/2012 12:15

hmmm well we are learning more all the time about the biochemical interactions in the brain that cause the experience of 'finding God', so if you really want to find out I would go and read the literature.

Spiritual experiences have been stimulated using drugs under laboratory conditions so if you really want to find God you may like to involve yourself in some drugs trials.....

trustissues75 · 07/02/2012 12:21

Shrooms!!!!!! JK...I had a friend who once took mind altering substances...he found himself being chased down a hill side by a human-sized mars bar....