" I don't think a lot of men like independant women"- is this bullshit?

[toptramp]

Just reading an article in the news review about Michelle Mone the entrepeneur behind Ultimo and she blames her divorce on her success and independance. She goes on to say she wishes she was a house wife and that is she was then she would still be married.
hmmm; I think I'd rather be a rich successful divorce than a penniless divorce. Is this giving out the wrong message?

It has struck a chord with me as I am fairly independant and ambitious yet I would love to find a dp. It is possible to find men who love independant and succesful women aren't there? I am not out to diss housewives btw.

Michelle Mone is a publicity hungry idiot, I wouldn't take any notice of anything she said. If a man wasn't interested because a woman was independent and successful he doesn't sound like a great choice anyway.

Incidentally, Michelle Mone said she'd leave the country if Scotland became independent. I think this was supposed to be helpful to the campaign against independence, likely to have the opposite effect however... Bye!

Tribpot - You are bang on the money.

I was "engaged" to someone a few years ago, before I'd met DP. He was a non-working-class, benefit-scrounging scumbag from a part of a certain city near me that's famous for being rough. He lived with his parents, played very loud drum & bass and was very proud of the fact that he has an ASBO because of it. I thought the world of him, because I was a naive twat.

His belief in how the relationship should work was "I say jump, you say how high". He used to text me at all hours of the night and day and if I didn't reply within ten minutes he'd ring my mobile and then my housephone until I answered. He would say "come over" and if I wasn't there within the hour I'd get the silent treatment followed by two hours of sulking before I'd "make it up to him" with sex.

I practically chucked my A-Levels out the window for him because he didn't like the fact I was more educated. Any time I used a word he couldn't understand he'd make fun of me for being "posh" and "up myself". He refused to "let" me go to University, saying that because I had him, I didn't need it. He stopped my driving lessons so if I wanted to go anywhere I had to catch a bus, walk, or ask him.

This went on for almost a year, and then finally he dumped me by sending his mother into my workplace to take back the engagement ring. And then his sister rang me to give me some abuse. Never been so relieved in my life - and I didn't even realize I was unhappy!

What a prize wanker. And he's still single. Still living with his parents. And he still has no job.

I think there are lots of men who like confident, successful women. I know lots of women who are more intelligent (if you can measure intelligence by exam success - I realise this isn't always fair or accurate) than their husbands.

But if she was 'married' to her career and her husband felt that she prioritised it ahead of him (no idea if this happened, but it's possible) then yes it's possible that this contributed to the marriage breakdown. I think it often contributes to marriage breakdowns between workaholic men and their wives too (although possibly women might tend to put up with it for longer).

Stealthpenguin- what a shocking tale, boy you had a lucky escape. Were you just young & niave, or did he have any redeeming features which made you want to be with him??? Sorry to be nosey!!!

LizzieMo - he made me laugh. That's pretty much it. It was my second serious relationship, and I was young and very very naive. He was a complete tool, and hindsight is a marvellous thing!

Thank God I have DP now!

After reading this, I think the point is more around how Michelle Mone changed after her weight loss. Doing glossy pics, sitting on mens knees etc etc.

However I do think women cope better in the supporting a successful partner role than men do

I think Michelle Mone's statement is utter bollocks as a general world view.

To me, it says she hasn't confronted the real issues surrounding the breakdown of her marriage, and is having a sly dig at her ex at the same time. She may be right, but it reads like a bitter woman who's DH had an issue with how little her life was shared with him. He could have said "We need you around more, this isn't a marriage if you're never here, always at work, never focussed on us" she could have heard it like "I resent you for being successful, I wish you were a housewifey and pandered to my every whim".

Her comment, seems to take a swipe at everything she isn't.

I would find it very difficult to be married to a man they never made any time for me and our 'life'. That doesn't mean I dont' like independant men!

I know a lot of happily married successful and independant women (do-ers, not independant as in selfish bastards, they say they're independant, they're really just bloody selfish) I think they make time for a life. Work/life balance and all that, and when you're successful its an effort to create space for a life as there's always something to do.

Not that I'd know, I'm an idle unambitious SAHM! Grr.

Stealthpenguin your horrid ex sounds starkingly familiar to one of mine.

You don't what you've got til its gone? I didn't realise what I DIDN'T have until it bloody went! Best day ever.

YANBU - it is bullshit. Don't know who this woman is but she sounds like she is looking for an excuse for the breakdown of her relationship and is blaming her 'success'.

As though all 'housewives' are dependant, wet and patronised, but happy because they are married! Ridiculous. Silly woman.

There are independent women and then there are independent women.

MrsPD is better qualified than me and is better paid than me. I like the fact that MrsPD can do DIY and has her own interests and that her life does not revolve around me. I have no problems with any of the above.

One the other posters kind of summed it up. Some people, guys as well as women, are emotionally independent. Speaking as a guy, if a woman is emotionally independent, then what is the guy getting in exchange for giving up a carefree singleton lifestyle?

I think she may be overstating it but there's a lot of truth in what she says (don't know how valid a POV it is regarding her own relationship as I know little about it).

There are a lot of men out there who like their wives/partners to be confident, independent, have their own jobs etc, but only to the extent that it doesn't interfere with their own careers and lives. The minute there is conflict between what the woman wants and what the man wants, it causes difficulty.

Aldiwhore I agree with you, being independent and interested in your work doesn't mean you are married to it. No-one loves a workaholic who can make no time for their partner.

Similarly, if you stay home and make your children your whole life and exclude your partner, they will not like that either.

No-one likes to feel like a spare part.

I think some men love a feisty independent woman (I don't think this is necessarily related to career interest, esp. as people tend to duck in and out of the workplace these days). But some don't. I have been shocked how many posts on MN indicate that the woman's life and career come second, (e.g. 'DH would prefer it if I didn't work, or I worked part-time'). I can't imagine having a preference for my husband not to work (it sounds odd even typing it). I am so glad I'm not married to one of these men.

AldiWhore - where are you from? Because there can't be two people who are that twattish!

There's a lid for every pot. And for every man who needs to be needed there's another who loves to have a wife who can cope if he's late or away on business, who can stick the kids in the car and drive for several hours without having a meltdown, who can fly across the globe on her own without batting an eyelid, who has a career she loves and is proud of, etc. An secure, confident man doesn't need the crutch of a needy woman.

There are undoubtedly some men who dislike ambitious, indpendent, intelligent women - basically they are frightened of them.

There are other men, who don't care. My wife has always been ambitious and I like her for her intelligence. Infact, the ONS now recognises a group of men that stay at home looking after children while their high powered high earning wife goes out to work. Clearly it works for them. Some men it apears actually really like being with these women and are very happy with their non traditional role.

There is a really interesting article at The Rise of the Dalis in the Spectator about this increasing phenomenon.

Dali - is an acronym that stands for Dependent and Loving it. On the whole a positive article and this bit caught my eye that really relates to this thread:

"The more Dalis I speak to, the more I realise that what nearly all these families have in common is that they?re responding to economic forces. Why should women give up fulfilling careers, and possibly endure financial hardship, just so that their husbands can enjoy the dignity of work? A secondary force in play here is the variation in human personalities. Not all men are temperamentally suited to the rat race. Some males are gentler, sweeter, more laid-back; they thrive in the home. Why should they be compelled to pursue a career that is stressful to them, if their wives are better suited to climbing the greasy pole? There are only so many alpha males in the world, after all. Isn?t it sensible to perform the roles that best suit our personalities?"

She lost a lot of weight. There's the reason why her and her husband have become estranged and it won't just be all his fault for not being able to cope with the 'new' Michelle. I know of 2 divorces and a few other women having affairs after they have lost lots of weight- they suddenly become much more confident and then start thinking that actually they are settling for the man they are with and the life they have and that there is a whole world of interesting men waiting for them out there. Their husbands were for the most part toally bewildered - it was like the women had major personality changes and not for the better
I lost lots of weight and I felt a bit like that too until I caught myself on.
Big diets should come with relationship counselling.
I accept not everyone who loses weight feels like this- maybe it's just all the shallow people I know.

MoreBeta - "There are undoubtedly some men who dislike ambitious, indpendent, intelligent women - basically they are frightened of them

Some men dislike ambitious, independent intelligent men or women because some can be such twats. Gender doesn't come into, at least not where I am concerned :o

MoreBeta I think that's great. There's nothing weak or needy about being a SAHP or a house wife/husband as long as the decision has been made with sound reasoning and with measures in place to protect the more economically vulnerable partner. A SAHP family model can work exceedingly well when it's what both partners want and they are suited to their individual roles. There are so many men out there who would make far better SAHDs than their wives/girlfriends would make SAHMs. I am pretty sure that most SAHDs are probably well-adjusted and very secure in their masculinity if they've chosen the role willingly, though I guess it is probably less the case for those forced into it through economic necessity (e.g. dad lost job but mum still has hers) - much like some women love being SAHMs and others hate it in fact...

I think the threat of 'strong, independent women' is very much a cultural thing rather than a gender thing. We have a culture that has historically set men at the top of the household. Obviously things are changing massively, but cultural traditions can take generations to be completely overturned.

Well, I consider myself a strong and independent woman and I am a SAHM/housewife at the moment.

Clearly I am not financially independent right this second but I am capable of earning a good wage and supporting myself (did so for many years and will undoubtedly do the same for many years in the future). Likewise, dh's financial independence is entirely dependent on me looking after our home/children (wages wouldn't cover the 12+ hours childcare he would need every day if I dropped dead).

Actually dh found the feeling of 'total responsibility' for the family finances the hardest thing to deal with when I stopped work. He will be delighted when I return to work (though undoubtedly less than delighted at the proportionate amount of housework/childcare he then has to provide).

Barbarian - he may become 'delighted' at hiring a cleaner once you return to work though.

Maybe MoreBeta, we used to have one (after a lot of whinging) when I worked before. Best money I ever spent.....

I once had a conversation with a male friend who asked me if I found that men were intimidated by the fact I have a high-flying career and have been pretty lucky with what mother nature has doled out looks wise.

At the time, my answer was that I didn't think that I would be with someone who would be intimidated in that way, but looking back, my ex most definitely was. On the surface he pretended to be proud of my success, but actually was always trying to undermine me by simultaneously expecting me to achieve the highest standards but at the same time sabotaging my efforts, such as by throwing loud and drunken parties on the eve of any exam/interview/first day in a new job that I had.

Luckily, my lovely DP is not at all put off by my career success, and is genuinely very supportive. Interestingly, he is not very ambitious when it comes to his own career (has modest ambitions, but in no hurry to race up the career ladder). He would be very happy to be a SAHD or to work part time when we have children.

On the other hand, before i met DP I always thought that I would be with someone who also had a high-flying career, but since meeting him I have realised that this is not what I need at all. I am very competitive () and always thought that being with someone who was also ambitious would inspire me onwards, but I really appreciate now not having a competitive element in that area of my life, and find it satisfying that all my achievements have been solely self- inspired.

Maybe it is to do with the way that boys are encouraged by society to be competitive that makes it hard for many to be with a woman who is more ambitious than them?

I suspect that where two people in a relationship are very competitive by nature it is inevitable they will start competing with each other unless one is prepared to back down.

DW always wanted to be the one with the high flying career and so before we had children we came to an agreement that I would take the bulk of childcare role and have a low key flexible academic career so she could jump on a plane at a moment's notice without having to worry about the DCs. It didn't quite work out that way but it would have been perfect if it had.

I know of a couple where the woman is a CEO of quite a big firm and her DH gave up his career in the City. It has worked out really well for them.

All the men I've ever been involved with have liked independent, argumentative strong-minded women.
Current DP had a string of argumentative feminist girlfriends before me which shaped him up nicely, I feel. He has no time for needy women.

Incidentally, I always think of Dennis Thatcher in this role. Although he had been a very sucesful business man himself he played up to the public role of the jolly old buffer with a powerful wife who was PM. In fact, she relied on him enormously.