To think that secrets should not be kept from DSS's mother?

[balia]

Recently DSS (9) invited one of his friends for a sleepover (a first for him and us) and DH and I were concerned that DSS's mother would make a fuss/retaliate by cutting access, so apart from a cancelled weekend, we were relieved there was no major fall out. (DSS's mum has MH issues that have an impact on a lot of things).

However, it turns out the cancelled weekend was a co-incidence, as DSS hasn't told his Mum about the sleepover. DH is all for keeping it quiet as well, but I don't think that is OK on a number of levels; the two mothers are bound to meet up at some point in the school yard or whatever and she will find out and feel deceived; it's not an OK message to give him, that one parent can let you 'not mention' something to the other; that he shouldn't be encouraged to think that this is a good way to deal with his mum's symptoms; and finally because it is the same as lying.

Or am I being really fussy about it? DH thinks we should leave it up to DSS.

YANBU, for all your very good reasons

I agree with you.

No YANBU, I'm afraid he or DH should have told her it was happening, it'll be much worse if she finds out from someone else, and he shouldn't be lying to his mum.

yanbu

Your DH is BU. 9 is too young to take responsibility for that sort of decision. Is he not worried at all that DSS has kept it from his mum? Surely says something about DSS's relationship with her?

and, yes, I agree DH should tell her now. She should have been told it was happening if it was a known issue, too late for that now though.

You are right.

It is teaching very bad lessons to your DSS.

I would be very unimpressed with my DH for encouraging this.

I can't see why it would be even remotely an issue, in the normal way of things - I'm obviously not getting what impact her MH issues have on the situation. Why would she have to be told if he has a friend over? Would you expect to be told if he had a friend to stay at his mum's house?

Agree with Crabby
It doesn't need to be a secret but she doesn't need to know either
Might be different if it was him staying over somewhere else but it's not

why should the mother need to know what goes on at your place whan its you looking after the DSS?

I'm with crabby, I think normal parenting decisions should stay in each house. So, you don't have to tell the other parent if they have chips or watch a bit of telly. I think a sleepover is like that.

But only you know if a sleepover is a major issue in your family, if it has been expressly forbidden (wow) or caused ructions in the past maybe best to be upfront.

The bigger issue is why the DSS is living primarily with someone who has MH issues to the extent that she apparently has.

As to worrying what will happen if/when the DSS's mother and the friend's mother meet and compare notes? If you and the DH know the mother of the DSS's friend, then could you approach her and revel a little about your circumstances? I don't think anyone I know would ever chat with exH about their child having a sleepover at my home -- I think most people would assume that what happened at one home a DC spends time in would be the business only of the parent of the DC who lives in that home and would not automatically expect the other parent to be in on every detail of a child's life while with the other parent.

As for 'keeping secrets'? Do you or your DH know how the DSS spends every moment of his life, whether he ever has sleepovers or goes to birthday parties, etc., while he's with his mother? I don't think you have to give an account tot he mother of how the child spends his time when he is with you, if that is not reciprocated by the mother. I also think if the child himself didn't tell his mother then that should be respected; it should maybe be probed because not to share with his mother is troubling, but I don't think there is any need to take it upon yourselves to give a full and accurate account to the mother of the DSS's activities when he is with you.

My own DCs do not share much with their father when they spend time with him and I do not provide a blow by blow account of their lives to exH either (there are no step parents involved).

You and your DH don't need the permission of the mother to have a sleepover at yours, right? And she doesn't need your permission to have one at hers?

I agree with your DH that it should be left to the DSS, but I think you need to address the MH /custody issue. It is having an impact on the child.

x-post there.

He has never had a sleepover at his mum's because of MH issues (think hoarding) and he isn't allowed to go to other people's due to anxiety issues over food, clothes, routines etc. However, she also doesn't want DH to let DSS do these things as this will make her look bad and she wants to do them 'first' as she wants all the 'firsts', even though she's never actually going to do them.

But even though she will be angry etc I still think she should be told before she finds out from someone else.

Poor lad.

It isn't him who should be telling her/keeping secrets then - your DH needs to mention it and take any flak, surely?

Sorry Math - wasn't ignoring, just x-posted.

The issue of residence was settled a long time ago and I think most people who have been through the court process would tell you that a change of Residence to a father is very unusual if the mother is not a raving alcoholic/drug addict/psychopath. Also, she was hardly going to go into court and admit to the extent her MH issues impacted on the children, was she? DH did tell the court about the ritual behaviour, hoarding etc. Whilst the Cafcass officer did raise concerns, particularly if she didn't get any treatment (she hasn't) the conclusion was that she could do a good enough job with the support of her family. Many people with MH issues do manage to raise their kids very successfully. We would have no hope whatsoever going back to court to try for residence over a sleepover.

In the normal way of things, it wouldn't be an issue and there would be no need at all to share the info. And you are certainly right, we let him do things here that he hasn't or isn't allowed to do at home and not worried about mentioning it, like letting him swim without armbands, or brushing his own teeth. But DSS knows she would be upset and wouldn't want him to do it, and he has deliberately kept it from her. Are you sure it's OK to support him doing that? Does that extend to other things like eating meat here (he and she are vegetarian) or only things that we decide she should be OK with? Genuinely, where do we draw that line?

I agree with you, Crabby, I think DH should tell her.

God it's really tricky, isn't it. My general attitude for DD is that mum's house = mum's rules, dad's house = dad's rules, and I wouldn't dictate to DD about what she does at her dad's, nor expect to hear every detail of things I don't particularly approve of - drinking coke and chewing gum, too many sweets and staying up all night on NYE, for instance. Mind you, she does delight in telling me. My point is that I don't see it as 'keeping secrets' as such - it's up to her what she wants to tell me, isn't it? Likewise, why should your DSS have to share details with his mum that he knows she's likely to kick off about? I find it sad that he's learned already that his mum can't be told certain things, but hey - he's coping in the most effective way he can, isn't he?

I wouldn't encourage him to lie, but see no reason for him to tell her if she doesn't ask. It shouldn't be a big issue. Making a big issue of it by telling her is just reinforcing her opinion that you should tell her everything you do and that she has more parental rights than her exhusband. Would your husband expect her to tell him about every sleep over at her house? He's being unreasonable if he does.

Clearly this is part of a much wider issue though, isn't it? And it sounds like the current arrangements aren't working for DSS - who is the most important person here - whether that means her MH has deteriorated or his needs (for independence and more socialisation) have outstripped the limits of what his mother is prepared to give.

Keeping secrets isn't the answer.

But perhaps involving SS or family mediation or something more official is.

And it's not 'going back to court over a sleepover', it's 'showing concern that the current set up isn't working in DSS best interest', IMO.

Under normal circumstances, I would say she should know and your dh is wrong to keep it from her deliberately.

But these aren't normal circumstances. She is being very selfish to allow her MH issues to affect her ds doing things that are completely normal for children of his age, so this is a problem of her own making. Is she made the effort to handle her issues better, then your dh wouldn't feel the need to keep it from her.

He is as much of a parent as she is and he has every right to allow his child to have a sleepover at his house. It doesn't affect the mother at all, but she is likely to stop him seeing his own child for doing something completely harmless and completely normal. Someone who behaves like that forfeits the right to be told everything.

I know what you're up against wrt the MH issues exH has them in spades and it wasn't possible to do anything about making the DCs' visitation with him supervised there was no question of having no visitation at all. He has rights... Little children have to make the most of it if a parent is unwilling to put the child first and accept that they have problems that will affect the child.

That being said, your DH's ex would have no hope whatsoever of winning any court battle over a sleepover either, and if she chose to take you to court over this issue she would be the one looking very strange indeed -- controlling and OCDish and downright barmy.

If the DSS is upset and doesn't wish to deal with the sort of flak he might get from his mother if she knew some of the details of his life with you and his father then I think you really have to respect his wishes, but also to talk with him about his feelings. The things you mention are little things if you look at them what he eats two days a week or two days a fortnight, whether he gets to try swimming without armbands (the mother surely realises he will eventually grow out of needing them?) and things a child would normally get to do, like brushing his own teeth. In fact, brushing a child's teeth for him is very much a physically intrusive thing to do. You are not endangering him by anything you do, but smothering him as she seems to do is not one bit healthy and the fact that he seemingly cannot bring this up with her is troubling it is the most troubling aspect of what you have posted imo.

You are providing him with normal and positive childhood experiences. If she chose to make any sort of official fuss about what you are doing, no court would give her the time of day. If she made her DS feel miserable and you heard about it, then you might even go further with SS, or inquiries through his school and SS combined, and perhaps change things residence-wise. Challenging his mother's skewed view of what is appropriate for the DSS is not something completely off limits because she has MH issues. I would therefore draw the line at any sensible parenting decision you and your DH make when he is at your home. None of it is any of her business unless there is danger to the DSS involved. Same goes vice versa (but you have plenty to be concerned about in her treatment of this child imo).

Well, I'm very glad I posted and thank you all for the time and thought that has gone into your posts. Have had another discussion with DH; and whilst I am very uncomfortable with it, we have agreed that whilst DH will raise the issue of why DSS hasn't mentioned it to his Mum, it will be left up to him (DSS) if he subsequently tells her, having told him that she is likely to be more cross if she finds out from elsewhere.

DH is about to start mediation about holidays so perhaps some issues can be raised about age-appropriate activities for DSS. I don't hold out much hope, though. DSS has an older brother of 15; he isn't allowed to stay over at other people's houses or go on overnight trips with school. And I'm not underestimating the impact of the MH issues, BTW, we just feel helpless to do anything about it. For example, DH raised issues about DSS's home environment during the court process. Mum has massive hoarding issues (like the ones you see on the telly) eg DSS has to do his homework on the floor as there isn't a single clear surface in the whole house. He still shares a bedroom with his brother because his room can't be used because of the hoarding. The bath cannot be used. But Cafcass made their report without visiting the house (saw her at her mothers) because the idea of strangers in her house 'upset her'.

I would be ringing social services and doing whatever I could to get my child away from that situation.

A child only has one childhood and one it is fucked up, it is fucked up and can never be regained.

I would call the NSPCC and get more advice on how to proceed, and call SS until they knew the sound of my phone ringing. Certainly call the school. Just because a court has made one pronouncement doesn't mean that is the last word.

Thank you, that is much food for thought. Have checked out the NSPCC website and got the number, I think I will give them a call.

I suppose DH's/my lack of action stems from the court case - it was so hard (not to mention expensive) to make any headway and there seemed a real risk that DH would lose contact altogether. So many threats were made, so many accusations. And none of DH's concerns were taken very seriously - but then even I didn't really believe/understand how bad she really was until I had a few experiences of her; a lot of the stuff is hard to believe. It took 4 years to get the level of contact we have now, so we are both very reluctant to do anything that rocks the boat.