AIBU to think that most people with children who

[Hedgeblog]

say the phrases in regards to paying taxes such as

"I pay your wages mate (to anyone who works in the public sector)" or "I don't want MY taxes to pay for benefit scroungers" etc. are totally mistaken.

In fact the majority of people in the country barely cover the state costs of their own childrens education let alone their NHS bills, tax credits, child benefit, subsidised rail fares etc through their own taxes.

It costs the state 5K to educate 1 child of school age per year, add in NHS costs and you get the picture.

I hear this expression quite often it really grates on me. I know our society doesn't work on a zero sum basis but really unless your earning over #50K are in good health and don't have kids stop spouting on you pay everyone's wages!!

Oldmum

Of course everyone pays indirect taxes - vat, petrol duty etc, but the more money you have the more you spend, so the more indirect taxes you pay.....

Was about to write the same thing

Hedgeblog: "That would lead me to believe that 90% of the country are actually not paying their way." Except that the money that the top earning / tax-paying 10% have has been paid to them by me - profits from my savings in their bank, profits from my expenditure on No Frills Baked Beans, profits from my average-waged labour, profits from my Insurance policy etc etc.

In fact our household income is higher than average, we both work f/t, and I am sure we are not currently 'paying our way' - DS has hugely expensive surgery on the NHS and I count my lucky stars for that and am grateful that we do all contribute to the common pot for such things. However that surgery will enable him to walk, and hopefully he will make favourable career choices and contribute to society as much as he can - in many different ways.

Blu "profits from my savings in their bank"

Sorry to break this to you but banks don't make profits from personal current and savings accounts

Blu

On a more serious note I hope your DS's surgery is a complete success.

"banks don't make profits from personal current and savings accounts " - not from mine they don't, true!

Thanks for your good wishes.

I don't think you can ever figure out a true break-even wage.

So many government services can't be broken down in any meaningful way. We all benefit from roads, anti-pollution measures, border security, sanitation, rubbish collection, it goes on and on. What is any one individual's financial benefit from that? Who can say?

I think generally people underestimate how many government services they use.

And to the extent that government revenues come not just from income taxes but consumption taxes, anyone who buys stuff is contributing to the pot, not just people who are working.

Why do people moan about tax?

You get what you pay for, and the truth is that the vast majority of people in this country could not afford to completely dispense with government services and pay for the whole lot privately.

We'd probably all be a lot better off paying a little bit more tax and not having to fight so hard for those services. In fact, pay a meaningful amount and you may find that state education is so good you can save those £3000-a-term school fees and that £150-per-month private health policy that actually uses NHS doctors anyway. Pay even more than that again and we could subsidise childcare, public transport and pensions more effectively, meaning people won't need so much of their incomes free from tax to cover these things in the first place.

If it comes from a pensioner who/husband etc was subscripted into fighting for Europe (not just this country in reality), then i think that they can have a gripe when they get substandard service.

People forget to easily that the working class have been cannon fodder/work horses, again and again and it isn't all about how much money that you have earned/paid in (getting totally pissed off with everything equating to "pounds, shilling and pence").

Why sunshine, you must be some sort of communist

Totally agree.

But, collectively, we do pay the wages and benefits. The government is accountable to the taxpayers and need to spend the money wisely. Nothing gets my goat more than sitting in a meeting with public sector people who do similar jobs to me and earn double being told that my part of the sector should cut costs grrrr.

sunshine the thing is I don't want to hand over even larger swathes of money to the state for them to provide services I may or may not use.

I want to make my own choices and be responsible for my own destiny.

When I look around the world at the governments, including those supposedly doing a fab jb, I frankly trust my own judgement and ability to support and protect me and mine.

higgle
We all collectively also pay for tax credits for people in the private sector. That is not my point.

My point is I hate it when people say I pay your wages. When they don't even pay enough tax to support their own family!!

But wordfactory you still benefit from services that you don't use.

Say you don't have a car -- you still benefit from the roads, because they enable the transport of food and necessities at lower costs.

If you don't have DC and don't use the school system, you still benefit from having a well-educated population, that maintains our modern economy which gives you a job and the things you need.

Benefits provide for sick and disabled people who would otherwise be in the gutters starving. Do you want to have to take care of them yourself? or would you simply step over them on your way home?

I understand being frustrated with government decisions but I think that just means we need different people in government, not to all go off on our own and fend for ourselves. Society would totally fall apart if everyone did that.

Yes I'd still benefit from certain services but that's not the point. I don't want the state to decide how the majority of my money should be spent.

For example I want to decide if I want to live frugally now and live the life in my retirment. Or perhaps I want to have a ball now, and live modestly in my retirement. I want to decide that not have the state decide.

I am happy to pay my taxes (a good deal at 50%) for decent public services. But I don't want or need gold plated ones. I want the money to make my own way and my own decisions.

Okay maybe I'm being dense, but why can't you decide that now? how is the state forcing you to decide?

If you want to be frugal now, go ahead, what's stopping you? And if you want to live it up now, get a good job and go for it. It's really more the market determining whether you can do that, not the state.

Probably everyone would rather decide where their money goes but that would be chaos.

I respect how you feel but I can't see how it could ever be made into a workable system for everyone.

Does anyone know who is paying then and are we all putting in for the tip?

who the hell is going to decide how to divide up the bill? who had a starter?

Never mind the starters, who drank all this wine???

Someone always under pays and keeps quiet
Someone always says "well I only had 2 courses so I should put in less"
Someone always says "Don't see why I should tip, no-one tips me in my job

we could just do a runner...? i dont need to be faster than the waiter, just than ...

thats an 'i am all right jack tax payers' joke done through the medium of dividing up a bill...

dreamingbohemian - only about 26% of government receipts comes directly from income taxes.

I think it's called a society isn't it? Or is the OP advocating some form of anarchist, every man/woman for themselves, kind of existence? Or perhaps a return to bartering?

I'm paying your wages! I'm paying all your wages!