To think baby's health should come before mother's feelings?

[missduff]

I have 1 dc and I'm currently 9 weeks pregnant and the other week it dawned on me that in neither pregnancy I've been given any information about alcohol in pregnancy and the possible affects it can have on baby.

It doesn't really make much difference to me as I think I have a rather sensible attitude towards alcohol: none in first trimester and then maybe a unit or 2 on special occasions (birthdays/Xmas etc).

But I know there are a lot of women who are very ignorant and think 'oh it won't happen to me' so I think for this reason it would be good for the nhs to educate women about FAS.

I asked myidwife at my booking in appointment why they give us so many leaflets but why do they not give us one about drinking in pregnancy, her answer was ''we don't want to scare women''. Her point was that a lot of women have already been drinking in early pregnancy before they find out so I suppose the fear may be that if they give a woman a leaflet saying ' this is what can happen to your baby if you drink' then a woman may terminate the pregnancy unnecesssarily.

BUT what about the women who just don't know? Isn't it better to educate the women and try and tackle the UK's ever increasing rates of FAS? Which btw the figures are totally innacurate, it's thought that a lot of children with FAS are just diagnosed with autism.

I just think that the health of all these babies should surely be put before the woman's feelings?

How nice that the OP is linking FAS and ASD.

All us mothers with Autistic children must just be alcoholics then eh?
Never mind the fact that I am completely tee-total and have a son with Autism and ADHD.

What says the parents stinking of booze and weed at your school were using these substances during pregnancy? I doubt you were there watching their every move.

Judgemental much?

I am not quite sure why you raised the situation in some areas of the USA. If it was to say "this is bloody ridiculous, makes you spit doesn't it, outrageous" then good.

I've never had a leaflet on alcohol or smoking in any of my pregnancies, but I have been asked if I smoked or drank to which I replied no. I hardly think a leaflet would be worth my reading in that case and I got plenty enough as it is.
My SIL, who is a smoker, was given plenty of advice and help to stop smoking which she chose to ignore
I have another friend who didn't discover she was pregnant until she was 8 months gone, during which time she had not changed her lifestyle at all and continued to smoke and drink in excess. She was advised to stop both of those once she found out she was pg and given support to stay off cigarettes, although she has returned to smoking since her daughter was born.
So its help and support where its needed, surely? Likewise I've been asked if I need support to do with DV, which I have no need of, but the support is there for those mothers-to-be who sadly do need it.

I am in no way shape or form saying that all learning problems are caused by alcohol, I'm just saying that there are so many children out there who have been affected by alcohol in pregnancy but who have been diagnosed with autism and/or ADHD and therefore no statistics are ever going to demonstrate the current social problems with people drinking in pregnancy

Is this thread a stealth dig at parents whose children have Autism and/or ADHD?

What are you actually trying to say OP?

In short, scientists are not sure about the precise impact of small amounts of alcohol on unborn babies. The government don't even know what is safe level is.

Worra, the worst thing the pre-pregnant woman can do for the health of her yet to be conceived child is not have sex. Makes it almost certain of a poor outcome for that hypothetical child.

And how on earth would you know there are so many children out there who have been affected by alcohol in pregnancy if they've been diagnosed with something else?

Aye Stealth

And if your parents don't have children, the chances are you won't either

Ah I didn't know that

phew - doesn't affect me though

OP you do realise you answered your own question though, you don't drink a lot therefore the MW wouldn't be likely to speak to you about it.

I seriously doubt that a MW would avoid talking to a pregnant woman who drank heavily - even if the MW knew the advice would be ignored.

I really don't get the links between ASD and FAS (if that is what you mean) either? So they have similar traits but it is highly insulting to say that it's the same thing. Be careful OP to be really clear in your meaning, as the debate may not go well if you aren't clear.

it's thought that a lot of children with FAS are just diagnosed with autism"

and before that it used to be thought that a lot of the children with these traits were just damaged by cold and distant mothers

nothing more uplifting than a bunch of people sitting around thinking instead of looking for real evidence [mm]

I had DC number 5 20mths ago and it was discussed and in the literature I was given.

There is a lot of controversy around FAS because the diagnosis has been widened to include a huge spectrum. I dont think its called FAS now is it? I thought they had changed it to something wider? I cant remember (must be the wine)

It is a serious issue. Last training I went on I heard a figure of 1:100 children affected by the FAS spectrum of disorders.

I was amazed and I am not so sure about that figure.It seems an awful lot to me.

The vast majority of mothers care more about their unborn child than anyone else does. Given correct and balanced information they will make good choices.

I dont think the OP should make such statements based on what one midwife said to her.

BTW Missduff I dont wish to alarm you but the training I have had regarding FAS is that, aside from the problem drinkers, its all a bit of a lottery.

Having a that one drink can cause damage if it happens to be at the wrong time. The chances are it wont but it isnt just those who have a less than sensible attitude to drink that get caught out apparently

That is from the consultant in charge of Looked After Children in a large London borough. She has made detailed studies of the affects of various substances in pregnancy.

I think it is all very complicated and there is no wonder women are confused by it all.

Personally I have chosen not to drink when pg apart from the very odd spritzer. I think most women are the same. It is the minority who drink a dangerous amount in pregnancy.

I despise the way pregnant women are infantalized.

As for Pre Pregant WTF?

Please do not misunderstand what is stated here. This does not claim that all Autism is caused by alcohol. This does not claim that FASD is the same as Autism.

I have read your report, and I do tell you they are wholey different conditions. What that report is saying is that similar clincal interventions may be useful for both syndromes, as the symptoms and underlying difficulties may be similar.

It also states some cases of autism are due to alcohol, and I agree there is a potential for misdiagnosis, although again I would question if it is as widespread as you state without further proof.

Just because two conditions may present with similar issues or symptoms doesn't magically make them the same condition.

I was given so many of these leaflets and it was in all books I was given by nhs 3 years ago

I seriously doubt a midwife would not have a word with a woman who was drinking heavily in pregnancy.

I don't see any reason to bombard non-drinking women with loads of information about FAS.

So I think the entire premise of your question is wrong.

I've worked with lots of kids with FAS. There is a distinctive set of physical characteristics, as well as the LD.

You may be thinking of FASD (Foetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorder) which is not in the ICD10, and diagnoses vary between countries and even doctors.

Another stick to beat women with, IMO. Heavy drinking leads to FAS. There is no proof that occasional alcohol causes any problems whatsoever.

BTW, I have a child with ASD. I also have two NT children. I drank not at all with DC1, (NT), about 4 glasses of wine in the whole pg with DC2 (ASD) and a pint of summat nice at least once a week with DC3 (NT.) Anecdotal, but there you go.

As a parent of a child with autism I do not feel remotely got-at by the OP's hypotheses which are (as I understand it) that some of the rise in autism diagnosis is due to misdiagnosis of FASD and also that some FASD goes undiagnosed because a correct diagnosis of ASD is assumed to account for all the child's learning difficulties including those actually caused by FASD.

Interesting but it would take a hell of a lot of work to prove it to anybody's satisfaction since we don't have a definitive test for either disorder.

But honestly I think that the message that drinking in pg can harm your baby and is best avoided is given out clearly by the health service - it's the serried ranks of MNers (and indeed everyone's mates, sisters, mums, aunties) saying that they drank in pg and it never did their children any harm who I'd be more concerned about OP.

Dilys there are definitive criteria for FAS. And it is underdiagnosed, apparently, even when those criteria are present, because it relies on an accurate history being given.

Of the kids with FAS I worked with, none was still with their birth families. It is persistent, heavy drinking (and all the associated social problems) that causes the issues.

ASD is terribly hard to diagnose effectively, and there are dozens and dozens of genetic disorders that can cause the same symptoms. My son was put through batteries of tests because the paed thought he was funny looking (his words!) which all came back negative. I worry that this kind of thinking will have parents of kids with ASD who dared to have a half of cider on a summers' day put in the same box as those who did cause their child's disability.

It is not that long ago that ASD was soley blamed on the mothers' behaviour.

wilsonfricket the report shows that there are similarities between the 2 spectrums and therefore there is room for misdiagnosis, my point being that because of this statical figures showing the number of children who have been affected by alcohol to be inaccurate.

A child may see a doctor displaying symptoms which could fall under either the fetal alcohol spectrum or the autistic spectrum, the dr may ask the mother ''did you drink in pregnancy?'' she may have done but may still answer ''no''. Is the doctor supposed to wire her up to a polygraph machine to determine the truth or would he just go with the other option and diagnose the child with autism? It's not as black and white as you may think.
No 2 children are ever exactly the same, and from my experience of working with the children I work with its often quite difficult to say ''this chid has x wrong with them'' most of the time they are just not quite right but you can't quite put your finger on what it is. It would be almost impossible to say that it is caused by alcohol or just one of those things. But then when you meet some of the mothers it's quite clear to see what has caused it. Again I say some of the mothers, not all.

I've seen women hide their pregnancies because they are alcoholics and then say that they didn't know because they were still getting pregnant and i'm thinking 'that's funny because I could tell 3 months ago'.
Yes they are alcohol dependant so no amount of leaflets would have changed how they acted but it just saddens me so much.

I'm pregnant at the moment (in the North West) and was given the purple detailing usual advice. FWIW my GP told me that there is no evidence that up to 10 units of alcohol a week is harmful! Not that I would drink that, have only had a handful of spritzers on special occasions. He went to say that is 60 units a week throughout pregnancy that causes them concern. I think as long as you are sensible. There will always be women who totally ignore any guidelines.

purple book

misduff if they have FAS, then there are a set of criteria. The ASD diagnosis has no physical criteria, the FAS has several.

If a child has no physical symptoms of FAS, then they do not have it. They have something else.

They cannot be offically diagnosed with FASD, because that is not yet included i n the diagnostic manual.

I don't know why the OP is being so smug about her 'saensible drinking' .There is no safe level of alcohol consumption in pregnancy or whilst trying to conceive, according to NOFAS the main charity for FAS

"I've seen women hide their pregnancies because they are alcoholics and then say that they didn't know because they were still getting pregnant and i'm thinking 'that's funny because I could tell 3 months ago'.
Yes they are alcohol dependant so no amount of leaflets would have changed how they acted but it just saddens me so much."

Well you're not going to get much argument there, but what on earth does that have to do with your OP?

Who are you pissed off with?
Alocholics?
People who have the odd glass of wine?
People who have children with autism?
People who don't live their lives as "pre-pregnant"?

What?

You are also failing to understand the quite important difference between FAS and FASD, despite numerous people explaining it to you.

Smug? I didn't say i drink sensibly, i said i have a sensible attitude towards alcohol. I said I hardly touch a drop! For a start I can't even stand the smell of it, am sick if DP comes anywhere near me when he's had a beer.
In the whole of my last pregnancy I probably had about 3 units, 3 units in 9 months! I had a glass of bucks fizz with my Xmas dinner, and a spritzer with my birthday meal. I challenge anybody to say that that is unsafe!
In this pregnancy I haven't touched a drop.

I don't know why everybody is attacking me, I didn't realise it is an offense to care about the welfare of unborn children!