Eight different Maths teachers in two years! Furious!!!!

[Solo2]

AIBU to feel so angry? DTs, aged 10, have now had 8 different Maths teachers in 2 years and have been demoted twice, landing finally in the bottom set. I know this shouldn't matter but I want to add that this is an academically selective fee-paying school and I'm struggling to keep going financially, as a single mum solely reliant on my self-employed income for the fees. So I'm paying for what seems to be amounting to massive staff turnover and a direct adverse effect on my DCs.

In Yr 4, they had 2 different teachers as one left after one term. Fair enough. In Year 5, where the children are set for Maths, they started out in the second from the top group. That teacher used sarcasm and public humliation to 'spur them on' - and it didn't work. DTs lost more and more confidence and in the final term, got demoted down one set.

In that last term, the teacher was on sick leave, so they started out with a fill in teacher who was lovely. Then the proper teacher returned and taught them for that last term and the first term of this year. He also used public humiliation and sarcasm and was v old-school strict and DTs found it impossible to speak up in class, ask when they didn't understand and were then berated for 'not joining in'.

Main Maths exam happened at the end of last term and DTS didn't do v well at all. They were demoted again - this time to the bottom set. I argued for one of them being kept in the other set, as he was gutted about another demotion and spent the whole Xmas hol. crying on and off and not wanting to return to school because of feeling so embarassed.

However, the new set teacher was someone they both knew well and liked and I met with her and had a long discussion about how to settle them in, help them improve, reduce anxiety and not feel embarassed. The school kept telling me that this was going to be a really good thing for the twins.

When term started, we found out that owing to lots more staff turnover - for a variety of reasons - that Maths teacher would no longer be teaching that set. A supply teacher took her place - and I was v concerned and angry (thread on the Education forum about this). But when I asked to go in and meet that teacher and discuss things with her, I was told to wait a few weeks until my DCs had settled in. The supply teacher was knew the school well and they her and so I hoped it would somehow work out.

Today, with no warning at all, we get informed that this supply teacher isn't going to stay for the last 2 terms at all and is leaving next week. A brand new (to the school and also I think to teaching) teacher is starting.

Once again, my sons will need to get used to a new teacher, with new methods, a different personality and who doesn't know the school - or my DCs - at all. I can't imagine that she'll be totally on top of everything from the start but there are only 1 and a bit terms left at all now.

DTs start at the senior part of the school In September - a school renowned for it's Maths and Science geniuses - which doesn't at all describe my sons. I'm never going to expect them to be near the top but I do think they could be nearer the average for their cohort and that the staff tunrover has played a key part in their demotions, loss of confidence and decline.

AIBU to feel furious tonight, especially at the way in which the school inform us about these things and mislead us too?

Eight sounds too many but can I just ask you what being 'demoted' is all about?

Children are put into whichever set is best for them to learn in.

It's got nothing to do with 'demotion' or 'promotion'....it is quite simply just being moved to a different set that suits them.

Worraliberty, I can accept that if they're struggling in the second from the top set that an easier set would be better to increase confidence. However, so far, DTs say the bottom set are doing things they find easy and did 2 years ago. On the whole, I'd rather them gain confidence than feel stupid but I'm also aware that they need to catch up with the work that the other 3 sets are doing, if they're to hold their own in the seniors.

DT2 particularly is absolutely gutted at being demoted and really feels and believes it's a huge personal humiliation. I think this is because a) he's really conscientious b) all his group of friends are maths geniuses in the v top set c) he's doing well otherwise and this feels like a personal failure to him.

The school sell the idea of sets being there for the best fit for the child but we all really know (children and parents alike) that the top set is for those excelling at maths and each set down indicates lesser ability. The demotions are a direct result of exam results and DTs got quite far below the average for the year (average was 78%, many children scored 100% and DTs both got 60%, putting them in the bottom quarter).

Maybe an academically selective, fee-paying school does not have the best atmosphere for your twins?

igggi - I'm hoping for better things in the separate senior part of the school. It's just right now that I'm incensed with rage - but starting to calm down a bit I guess....

Surely 8 different teachers over such a short space of time is pretty unusual for a school?

But he should never feel 'personally humiliated' (unless of course you use the word 'demoted' in front of him?)

He may be doing work he's done before but as soon as he's gone over it and showed he can get it right, he'll be moved up again into another set that suits him.

As for holding his own in the seniors, he's far more likely to be able to do that if he's put in the right set in Primary school...no matter what that set is.

They don't stay in the same sets for long if they move forward well with their work.

I think I would be worried at a school that had such a large turnover of staff...

I saw your other thread on this. It really does sound like a school in chaos tbh. Consistency is a big factor in children being happy in school and learning well.

Even at the mediocre state school I work in, set changes are only made when necessary (maybe 1 or 2 per year maximum - otherwise you would be thinking how could the teachers have assessed the children so badly in the first place?????)

I would seriously consider whether you want them to stay on there from September - or do you think things will be totally different once they are in the Senior part of the school?

I would ask to meet with the Head, and point out that the school's reputation for Maths and Science is not going to last long at this rate and ask what they are doing to rectify the situation. You pay fees, you deserve a service worth paying for!

Sorry OP

I'm not sure I agree with you Worra. I was moved down a set because the teacher didn't like me and I ended up doing the same work I'd already done and then doing even better than before, and I was never moved up again because of the teacher.

This meant I was not allowed to achieve better than a C grade when I took my GCSE's.

OP, I think you should keep a close eye on your child's progress and if you feel he's not being challenged or learning anything new ask to see the head of year and have a look for yourself at your child's progress or lack of and also get the head's view on the effect 8 diff teachers has had on all the class.

They surely can't get away with ruining someone's education because they have staffing problems. It might be worth talking to other parents about the effect it's had on their kid's work.

Worra - no one has used the work demoted in front of him. But he's pretty constantly referred to feeling embarassed, ashamed and humilated at "being moved down another set - this time to the bottom set".

I talked a lot to him over the hols about how it'd be a really good thing and how much he liked the teacher of that set - who's obviously not turned out to be the teacher at all. He still feels very upset. The higher sets are already doing more advanced work, so DTs couldn't really now catch up, as they're at best going to consolidate old work.

In the seniors, for the first year, none of the children are set at all. In one way this is good. In another way, I have no idea at all how my DTs will manage alongside other children who are already working near GCSE standard and winning national maths competitions. Those children will presumably be frustrated with the slower children but children like mine will presumably feel really stupid to be struggling whilst a child next to them may be bored with the ease of things!

Anyway, in Yr 8, all children are again set but not sure how many sets there are - possibly 5.

Anyway, the issue here for me really is the staggeringly fast staff turnover and the way in which parents are informed, suddenly, with no warning and having been led to believe otherwise. In the set above DTs, there was supposed to be a new teacher starting there too and just before term started, she withdrew and was replaced by someone else. About 8 or 9 longterm staff have all left over the last 3 years.

There must be something seriously amiss in the school or at least in the Maths department for there to be such a high turnover. It sounds as though they are keeping the stability for the top sets at the expense of the rest. A good HOD would teach the lower sets him/her self in order to help them realise their potential.
60% would be a good mark in most places-heading for C/B at GCSE

60% would be a good mark in most places-heading for C/B at GCSE

The ops children are 10yo - not Y10.

I've seen the head before in relation to other issues, including DT1 being given detention for being the victim of bullying - which I'd already warned the school about but nothing was done. I know of other parents that have also had meetings about other things with the head and the consensu of opinion is that either you tow their line or you get out. I now realise there's not much mileage in complaining.

I think a huge factor here is that the school has a much higher than average number of extremely bright children, particularly in maths and sciences. Thus it does well in league tables etc. It 'creams' off local high IQ children and those children thrive if they're not only very bright but also conscientious in personality, hard-working and able to work well autonomously.

Where it doesn't seem to do so well is 'value added' to children who aren't at the top of an elite - just bright enough - but possibly struggling with attention problems, immature or young for the year (my twins are quite young for the year), don't totally excel at the maths and sciences - even if they do in other subjects.

I agree that it seems entirely unfair that the lower sets have had more changes of teachers than the higher sets. This is a school in transition -expanding rapidly, recently gone co-ed and several of the old guard staff - almost all now - have left over the last few years since a new head started.

I'm hoping for better things in the separate seniors. Incidentally, DTs have only had such an extremely high turnover of maths teachers because of their 2 demotions, in the middle of 2 school years. If they'd remained in the second from the top group, they'd have only had 4 different teachers in 2 years, not 8. That actually doesn't sound that great either come to think of it...

I doubt if I'd be writing this if I had children who were brilliant at maths because I think those kinds of children will do well no matter how many teachers they have. These are the children who are doing A level standard maths games for fun in their spare time already. I fear that the school may think I'm only dissatisfied (if I say anything at all) because my DTs aren't ve good at maths and maybe I'm trying to put the responsibility for this onto the school. However, I don't expect my DCs to excel - but I do think they should be scoring just under average and slightly improving over time.

OP - i think I recognise you and you seem to have one issue after another with the school. I agree that the number of maths teachers in two years is not good. I'm really mystified as to why you persevere with the school when it seems to succeed in making your DSs unhappy. My own eldest DS was very unhappy at primary school and a move completely resolved his issues. I agonised because DS's move was from state to independent so a big financial commitment and ideological leap were required. I certainly wouldn't persevere in paying for such a seemingly miserable experience for a child though.

Start making appointments to view other schools.

Ask for a meeting (in writing) with yor DCs maths tutor and head of junior dept. explain why you think your DCs are not performing well. Ask for extra help/tuition for your DCs. It could be that your DCs are struggling with maths, but the staff turnover can't have helped.

Give the school/your DCs a time period in which to see improvement - either in terms of performance or their 'happiness'. Be prepared to move schools. I can't see the value either financially or emotionally of remaining in a school your DCs aren't happy in. It may be that the ethos (agenda) of the school is not compatible with your DCs.

If you do visit other schools, be upfront about why you are considering moving you DCs. Don't be afraid to ask the difficult questions, like turnover. It is your money, your DCs, your choice.

The Head of Studies also happens to be the teacher who was supposed to be teaching DTs Maths this year, is also the form teacher for DT1 and has now been moved to Head of Learning Support (sudden leaving of the original one on grounds of ill health). So she's the one to talk to really, along with the as yet unmet brand new Maths teacher who starts next week - I think!

I already met with her - ie the original teacher of theis maths set - at the end of last term to talk about how best to help DTs progress in Maths - but that was when I believed - was led to believe - that she'd be teaching them for 2 terms. I do think DTs happiness has somewhat improved in the new group as the work is easier - but the supply teacher they've just got used to in the last 2 weeks suddenly told them she's leaving next week. So I don't know how or if this will effect their happiness.

I remain concerned however about how they'll progress in maths if now doing easier work than the other sets? How can they catch up?

I've posted before about why I remain with this school. It's the top academically selective co-ed school in the region and the earlier you can get a place, the easier it is to remain at the school. It was my top choice when my DTs were babies, having viewed all other schools. They offered a place to DT1 at age 2.75 but rejected DT2 as being developmentally subnormal. (He went on to thrive at this school from age 7, except at maths and sciences whilst his twin - who was supposed to be perfect for the school at age 2.75, has struggled in all kinds of ways.}

There are no clear alternatives here. The state schools are good - but in a completely different league compared to the fee paying ones (far worse facilities and larger class sizes). The other fee paying ones are actually MORE expensive and more 'posh' and I'd liked the social mix of the school they're at and the sense that background didn't matter - only ability.

I am still hoping for better things in the seniors. It's only in the last few weeks that places for the seniors have been allotted and I've lived in fear that if I'm seen as a parent who complains, this, plus the fact that DTs are not in the elite level of their cohort will mean that they didn't get a place. There used to be a horrendous exam to pass to get into the seniors but now it's continuous assessment and 'opinion' of the school.

There are less than 2 terms left now, so that's a good thing and in the seniors, about 40% more children will join, for Yr 7 - which, along with new building/location, new teachers, different head - will hopefully be a positive change for us all!

Mysteryfairy, from what context do you know me???

YABVU to keep sending your kids there. You've had numerous threads about how awful the school was (if I'm remembering right - did one of your boys have a problem with a PE teacher?)

And people are always advising you to move school. And you always say this is the bet one or them.

There's no way I believe that. So I think YABVU to keep paying for sending your kids to that shool.

'I've posted before about why I remain with this school. It's the top academically selective co-ed school in the region and the earlier you can get a place, the easier it is to remain at the school. It was my top choice when my DTs were babies, having viewed all other schools. '

So, you have stuck with your choice, regardless of how ill-fitting it seems for your children? Yes, I have read several of your other threads listing all the unsatisfactory elements you have found and complained about.
I do not understand why you are not moving your children to a more suitable establishment, and can only assume that your ego and need to have them at a prestigious school you can talk about with pride in your social circles is more important than anything else to you.
Complain away, preferably with a group of other parents who feel the same. The school may choose to listen, or not. They can obviously fill any vacancies with ease so won't be keen on working with you if they don't see the need.

OP - surely there are more important things, that are staring you in the face, other than a school being 'top academically'?

If your dc are not receiving excellent and consistent teaching they will not achieve what they could academically anyway - and they won't be happy.

In my area, we have two super academic, private, selective schools. We chose not to send my v academic ds there (yes, yes all parents think their dc are clever!). We could afford it and thought he would probably get in but chose the great local state school because we thought it offered so much more than just academia. I believe he'll do better there.

Change schools and stop hanging on to this increasingly deluded notion that your children are in the best possible school. They're clearly not.

Your dc are not happy at this school. End of. You need to stop soldiering on and find a new school for them where they will be happy. They have reached the age where a change would be perfectly natural.

FWIW our ds had a disaster year with maths at about the same age - four teachers in one year a couple of whom were hopeless. Things kept changing and we would have gone in but every time it changed and we thought let's wait and see. The school never said anything formally although I had a quiet word with the head at a function. The following year the school put on Saturday catch up sessions for the boys whose progress was affected. There wasn't much comment, the boys were just invited and they all caught up and passed their common entrance and found their wings again.

That hasn't happened where you are; your boys are unhappy, you are unhappy. If you don't know the answer then nobody else can tell you what to do.

tbh, I'd be wondering what was wrong with a school that meant it had such a high turnover of staff. People don't generally leave a job unless they're not happy! If everyone is constantly jumping ship, that would raise alarm bells with me. It means something is wrong within the school.

I can understand the feedback. They will be leaving this school in early July in any case and moving to the seniors, which, as I say, is in a different location/site, has a different head, takes in a new 40% extra students at Yr 7 - many of whom will need to catch up with the cohort from the juniors. I'm hoping for a bit of a plateau year for DTs.

My DTs have only been at this junior school for just over 3 years. DT2 has loved it all - except the maths and science - has excelled in many areas, is with exactly the kind of peer that he fits with and is really loved by all staff. He wants and intends to stay with the school till age 18.

DT1 - the one the nursery selection wanted at age 2.75 - had a difficult Yr 3, a much, much better Yr 4 - so by then I was thinking - oh, he just needed to settle down.

It was only from Yr 5 that things started to unravel - both socially and academically. It was only from that year that he had teachers who were sarcastic and humiliating and that year, 2 different maths teachers too. I had him assessed privately and it turned out he had cognitive processing difficulties and as a result low self esteem. I wrestled with what to do and had many many discussions with the school. Whilst I wasn't fully satisfied with their response, he had an IEP put in place and pastoral input to help him on and, as DT2 was thriving and happy and DT1 was adamant he wanted to stay, we carried on.

If you have twins, you realise that they often (though not always) want the same opportunities as their twin, can be competitive and DT1 definitely felt that if he moved schools, leaving his twin, he'd feel even worse about himself - like he'd failed to keep up.

Moving to the state system would dramatically reduce my personal stress levels (cos of school fees!) but both DTs have been extremely upset when I've discussed this option and told them about the 'great local schools'. They assume they'll go onwards and upwards and DT1 is already excited about the different clubs and activities he's going to join in the seniors. All their friends and the people we have time to mix with - are at this school and they've known some (from their different pre-prep) since age 3 and really don't want to leave.

I know as a parent you sometimes have to do what your DCs don't want, if it's for their best but I'm not yet convinced they - or one of them - would be happier elsewhere. I think it'd seriously reduce DT1's self esteem and I know that DT2 (who is one of those children who are a bit 'little professor-like' and has Asperger's traits, along with several of his peers and best friends) wouldn't survive long at all, socially, elsewhere.

So I don't think it's an easy decision at all, although I do appreciate that on MN - with the few facts available from my posts - it may seems as if I'm far too attached to this school for all the wrong reasons. If I were that sort of person, I think I'd have had them at another local fee-paying school which, whilst less academic, is really, seriously posh/world renowned and might attract (though definitely not always) families where 'image' is everything. I felt that the school my DCs are at, would give a much better social mix and allow DT2 to 'fit' really well - which it has done.

As DT1 had previously been offered a place as a 2.75 yr old, I naturally assumed that he'd thrive there too. Finally, it was the school their lovely headmistress from their pre-prep (a different school) thought would be by far the best for both of them. I trusted her and found her advice and input invaluable (as a solo mum with no relatives around to support/advise), when my DCs were at her school. I had no reason to believe that her advice wasn't necessarily right.

But the school they're at now has undergone so many, many changes in the time they've been there, that no one could predict how those changes might affect specific children.

It's really then only been over the last year that my doubts have somewhat crystallised but as they only have weeks left to go (of term-time) and will start afresh at a completely different school - albeit the senior section of the same system), I want to find a way to making this work, until they leave.

As a teacher, I would be very concerned about applying to work at a school with such a high turnover. As a parent, I would not be happy and would be looking for another option for my child.

It really doesn't sound like it is a good fit for your children.

Would you consider moving one of your DTS out of this school. I've a small attention span I admit, but one seems to be doing better than the other.

Your latest post reads like one long justification/defence missive - I don't really understand why you posted.

What support or advice were you hoping for?

How are you going to 'make this work' when you are so furious and deeply unhappy with the school?

I think your anger and stress is likely to affect your children even more than the school's failings.

What MysteryFairy said, you've posted loads of dissatisfied-with-school threads over the years, Solo, they're easy to recall.