"Bad teachers clampdown"

[HowlingBitch]

What on earth is going on here? I have literally just seen this on the news (Do I live in some sort of bubble?)

Can someone explain how this works because it feels all wrong to me.

All teachers are constantly monitored and assessed - so I think any head should be able to tell whoa re bad teachers and who aren't. And yes some might be good in certain schools and not others. But as professionals we also have a responsibility to find jobs that suit our strengths. I would hope that any head would be sympathetic if a normally good teacher had a short spell of not being so good because of their personal life.

But there is a legal disciplinary process that applies to all workers and the point of this is that managers have to prove that there are good reasons to sack someone. So even if a head victimised someone, there are the same legal protections there are for everyone.

John,

I am sorry but you are basically saying that teaching is the only profession where every single bad individual sacks themselves. That is just not really credible, IMO.

I think that it is perfectly reasonable to make it easier to sack bad teachers. The next question is how to decide which teachers are bad and which are just having a bad day or period. I think we can all remember being school pupils and having very good and, indeed, inspirational teachers. The corollary of that is I imagine that most of us can remember having some frankly awful teachers who turned us off intrinsically interesting subjects.

I have a huge respect for teachers and think that they do a vital job. That is why those who cannot do it should not be allowed to continue attempting to do it.

No- I am not saying that- I am saying that in my experience- those that do not perform well have left of their own accord. Teaching is just awful, a really really horrible job to do if you are bad at it. You cant just go and hide in a corner- the kids are in your face and if they think you have any weaknesses- they will be even worse. Those that cant hack it usually leave. Why would they put themselves through that misery?
There are already steps in place to help monitor teachers- these will identify bad teachers- but the problem I think is defining a "bad" teacher (very rare) or simply a "mediocre" one- which I would hate parents to pounce on and then define them as bad.

Completely agree with Lesley. I would be a crap corporate lawyer. So I am not one.

I am sure that teachers who can't control classes will be motivated to leave. But imo someone can control a class, entertain the kids and still be a poor teacher. Thinking of 1 teacher I had who all the pupils liked - he was entertaining and fun, let us watch videos, etc. But we learnt very little.

Good teachers have to control a class, but they also have to successfully teach - 2 different skills imo.

lesley- but if he has the skills to entertain and control the class- then with support- could he not put those skills to use and actually teach them something? surely more cost effective and better all round than to sack him. obv he would need support and monitoring etc.

folkgirl I think the implication from the report is that whilst schools are pretty good at encouraging teachers to get out of their school, the result is the bad teacher just ends up at another school, and then it takes another year and another load of pissed off kids before they're pushed out again etc.

By having an easier formal way to get rid of a teacher, then they wouldn't be rehired as easily so the cycle wouldn't go on.

Do you think it acceptable for children to be taught by mediocre teachers John? I don't.

john Is it cheaper to invest in the teacher or to sack them and hire a better one? Thats an interesting point if it is.

Perhaps mediocre was the wrong word- but there is a huge range of variables between outstanding and bad- that was what I was trying to say...

Yes they should invest. But the legal disciplinary process includes showing that you have tried to help the employee improve their work performance. It wouldn't be considered reasonable though to totally retrain a worker. But it would be resaonable to help them improve their performance.

But tbh ime by the time it gets to disciplinary it is very very rarely a training issue. It is usually either an inherent lack of capability or more commonly an attitude problem e.g. refusing to accept that there is anything wrong with their performance despite all evidence to the contrary.

I was a TA in a rough secondary school. As a TA you get a view of teachers that other people don't get. You can put on an act if OFSTED are observing, or if the HT is watching you. But it's much harder to do that every lesson, every week. Plus of course the TAs talk to eachother.

The school I was at had some fabulous, inspirational teachers; some OK teachers; and a few very poor teachers. I was following a GCSE class, so poor teaching really has an impact. I also got to see how the same group of pupils acted for different teachers.

One of the really poor ones was the Head of English . He either screamed at the kids or sat in front of them reading his book leaving them with worksheets. When it came to the GCSEs I ended up (quietly and unofficially) tutoring the little group of boys who sat with my named pupil, because the teacher failed to provide them with any revision or guidance. The teacher finally moved on, but only because he got a promotion to another school. All the TAs breathed a sigh of relief.

Similarly our Physics and Biology lessons were calm and controlled, and work was done. Chemistry was an exercise in deliberately breaking equipment, screeching, leaving the room and generally behaving like yobs. Same kids - useless teacher.

Don't get me wrong, I'm in awe of most teachers and think they do a fabulous job. I couldn't do it. But surely if everyone (students, TAs and colleagues) knows you are a crap teacher you must know yourself? Either way it should be easier to get rid of them. There should be no shame involved- some people just aren't cut out for it.

FredFredGeorge Yes you are right, that does happen - staff members being recommended for other jobs in other departments and excellent references being written. But then that happens across all Council departments and is a problem for all who work there - unfortunately, once someone has a LA job and has passed their probation, it is very difficult to get rid of them!

There should be a way to remove persistently poor teachers from the profession but I tend to agree with John and someone else earlier who said that bad/struggling teachers tend to be well aware of it and do often take themselves out but there are others who don't.

Gladys What you have written is so true - there shouldn't be shame involved. Not everyone is cut out for every job even if they'd love to do it and be good at it. It often comes as quite a shock to a teacher to realise they're not actually cut out, but there's such a stigma about leaving and saying "do you know what? It's not for me" and I think that's because people who are good at it and love it are so passionate about it. And of course the children are such darlings, the system so supportive and the holidays are so good that why would anyone want to leave...

I don't think there are any struggling teachers who are oblivious to it. Really I don't.

kladdaka the 17 teachers sacked were those removed from the teaching register of the GTCE (is it still called that?). This is like a doctor being struck off. The real number of teachers no longer teaching because of incompetence is, I would imagine far, far more that this.

Not sure what all the fuss is about; the means of moving poor teachers on already exist, but many HTs do not use them because they are afraid of the unions. Well, if they have the evidence, they have nothing to be afraid of.

Handled properly, this should not be problematic. Oh, hang on. Much of this depends on the HT. Over the years I've seen weak teachers bullied and not helped; lazy cronies promoted to VERY high positions, and staff who do not kiss ass edged out of their jobs.

I predict a massive rise in teachers bringing in the union at the first opportunity, instead of later, as usually happens. This will be good if it means proper evidence of incompetence is given, and appropriate help given to those who need to improve. It will, however, be seen as "those unions" protecting poor staff, when they are only ensuring due process.

BTW, I have been a union rep sitting in with staff who are being helped to be better, and have instigating first stages of competency myself.

echt yes, there's something about schools that can bring out the worst in pupils and teachers alike. I've also seen weak teachers bullied rather than helped and weak doesn't necessarily equal bad. They might just lack confidence and with a bit of support flourish. But if the head just doesn't like them...

A teacher has been dismissed from my school in the last 3 years, and another is close to it now. At least another 3 have left before they were pushed. As a previous poster said, the figure being bandied around is for being removed from the teaching register, which isn't the same thing.

My head (clearly) will act to dismiss a poor teacher. It is a brutal process, and the support you get depends on your colleagues rather than SLT here for sure.

I teach in a difficult inner city school and numerous teachers have found that life is too short to deal with many of the pupils we have to face every day. Technically they are not ensuring all pupils make progress but in fact the pupils (and often their parents)cause so many problems that leaving the profession seems preferable. For example a young teacher spoke to me in tears today because one of her Year 11 pupils arrived late on Tuesday and fell asleep during her Maths GCSE exam. Speaking to the pupil afterwards the girl said she had jet lag, this was the first time she had been in school since Christmas having had the 'flu'. This poorly young lady was also sporting a tan as was her younger brother who had had the same 'flu', as a result this teacher had phoned the parents to check the story, if this young lady fails to get her target grade the teacher will have to explain why, as a result she had been insulted and called a liar because both children had been sick in bed for weeks. Strangely their friends had been getting e-mails etc from Australia.

Equally my school is open to parents indeed we invite parents in to work with Yr 7 pupils on the Accelerated Reading scheme. In addition to this any pupil who is excluded more than once cannot return until a parent/grandparent/aunt etc spends a day sitting with them for every lesson - a very effective threat to the average teenager.

GTC involvement is the equivalent of a doctor being struck off, rare because it only happens in extreme cases. Most incompetant teachers just leave.....and become OFSTED inspectors!

I think this is another part of DC's 'divide and rule' plan - turn the public against public sector workers, starting with the 2 biggest groups, nurses and teachers.

Sorry, posted too soon - as he can then shaft them on pay and pensions with no public outrage or even support.

What featherbag said.

There is no reason why anyone who is incompetent and has not improved with further training and mentoring should be allowed to stay in the job they are in whatever their profession.

This is not a knocking of teachers (or other public sector staff) but having worked in the public sector (and been a school governer) I do appreciate that there are certain sectors where it is VERY difficult to remove people who are not capable of carrying out their work to an acceptable standard.

IME of these 2 sectors the worrying common denominator was that they were just ' moved around, or moved on ' within the same sector but to another job and, often their colleagures just had to work even harder to take up the slack.

Quite, featherbag. Shite people love to play divide and rule.

mollymole surely if the evidence is there, there's no need to "move them round". I know this happens, but isn't it really about lacking the will to see the process through?

I do accept, though, that some people who are not competent in one school, can do very well in another.

I've never been judged incompetent in any way, but I know I'm a far better teacher, day in day out in my Australian school, than I was in the UK, though I was deemed very good there. I feel this is because the management support the staff, and the massive sense of entitlement by students and the default position of teachers are crap and need to be constantly monitored, promulgated by media and governments, does not apply here. It's not perfect here, but I can teach every lesson I plan, which was not the case in the UK.

One of the difficulties to be overcome is that a teacher is observed by the Head, the Head then sets up a support system, the success of which is judged by the Head. It is then the Head who makes the decision to sack the teacher. So in effect, the Head is prosecutor, Judge, jury and executioner!Which is fine, as long as you have a decent Head. But as we all know, there are as many poor Heads as there are teachers and if you get on the wrong side of a bad one, heaven help you!

But that is exactly the same in any small organisation! And there is legal protection in place.