to think schools should be more considerate of the needs of working parents?

[Purpleroses]

DD's class (Y4) were showcasing their work on Ancient Egypt today. They all made invite letters to take home to parents inviting them to the "Museum" which was to be held in their classroom from 2pm-3.15pm (school finishing time). She goes to a club after school on a Wednesday so I would normally pick her up at 4.15, but she really wanted me to see their work so I left work early specially. Got there at 3pm and found it was all finished and packed up. DD is really :( I'm really :( for her, and pretty cross at the school for having no thought about when might be a good time for people to come and see it, or to put the correct times in the invites.

And it was really hard leaving work early today too - I've messed colleagues around, all for nothing.

Her old school was much better at that sort of thing - class assemblies, etc - anything they invited parents to was always first thing in the morning which fits in an awful lot better with the working day for most people. Different demographic at her old school - smaller families, more working parents. Seems that the new school pretty much expects every child to have a SAHM if you are to have any involvement in their life. Even the parent teacher consultations are within working hours.

I know its not convenient but teachers have lives too so they really cant have these sorts of events at night all the time , but they could do it now and again i spose , When i was on the school PTA when mine were in primary when they did put things on in the evening workshops or whatever they were not very well attended so i think schools are damned if they do damned if they dont ,

I believe I said they should be available if required. That means that if a parent wants to make an appointment - I said nothing about hanging around on the offchance - then a teacher should be available. Similarly teachers should expect to be in school late for parents' evenings - what is that, twice a year? I have flexitime but I'm still expected to be in the office any time I am required to be, weekends as well (time in lieu only). Why are teachers any different? And why can't they do some of their mountains of evening marking in the school?

Teachers have directed hours 1265 or something like that, which covers parents' evenings, meetings, etc. They don't have to be on the premises, so why should they? They do not have to be in school except at those times, so why should they?

gaelicsheep you say you're not proposing teachers hanging around but then suggest precisely that.

Lots of teachers in school and make themselves available by appointment.

As for the marking, I for one, can only do it in utter silence. I'm also less focussed at the end of the day, so get up at 4.00.a.m. to do it. At home. Where it's quiet.

but teachers might be required by more than 1 parent all week are the supposed to be on call ? Its is fustrating when you miss something and i do understand they said 3 15 finish , but maybe nobody turned up the last half hour,

they have contracted hours thats what they work , you cant just phone up the bank teller and say i need to pay a bill can i come in at 7pm ,

I personally I think the OP's example is totally unforgiveable and the teacher should be ashamed of themselves.

If someone wants to make an appointment to see me at 4.30 or 5 I do my best to be available. I might like to leave earlier but I am there to do a job. Why are teachers any different?

I like to work in silence too. Unfortunately I work in an open plan office - that's life.

But teachers DO see people at 4.30 and 5.00. Where do you get it that they don't?

Sorry mate, but getting to grips with marking isn't tick and flick, you know. Unless you don't mind it not being done properly.

gaelicsheep - when I was teaching I had 10 parent's evenings a year. It was secondary, had two for most years plus sixth form.

Many professions have flexibility in when they actually have to be in the office and when they can work from home.

As a teacher I had time I had to be in school. The rest of my work was done flexibly, often at home, often at night once my DD was in bed, or at a weekend.

BUT obviously - as I generally suggest - if you think it is so fantastic and you'd like the same hours in and out of the "office" - then go ahead. Train and become a teacher. No one is stopping you doing it.

gaelicsheep - what job do you do? Does the job require you to be in a set place at a set time? I assume you knew this when you took the job too? So, it i syour choice, yes?

IME most teachers will try and be flexible and fit appointments in around parents to an extent, but teachers do have stuff to do outside teaching hours you know? And sometimes that requires not being sat in a classroom to do it.

For example - I need to use a computer a lot for school work. There is no machine I can use in the classroom that is suitable. The ICT room is not always available to use after school. My own computer is much better and has the software I require and which are best for the job. But I can't have it linked to the school internet, so it limits what I can do. Therefore it makes far more sense to go home and work from home. It is more efficient for me. I get more done and as a result it is better for the children I work with.

Echt - neither is researching and writing reports nor is doing complex data operations. I don't get to work in silence nor without frequent interruptions.

If teachers don't in fact mind working later, then why on earth are so many things held in school hours? Teachers should accept that on the days when events are being held they will be working later, just like the rest of us.

Hulababy - I have flexibility, but I endeavour to do the best job I can which means being available when the job demands it. You do presumably have plenty of notice of school events and can plan accordingly? Just as I know when I need to travel to meetings some distance away and plan accordingly.

gaelicsheep. Still don't get your point. Where have teachers objected to working later for events? It's about the directed time, as I mention in an earlier post. There's a limit to the time attacher can be instructed to be on the premises, about 1260 or thereabouts. If your job had such a structure, would you be gagging to increase the workload.

Your job sounds shite. Go and be a teacher, then you can mark in silence. At home. At the weekends. During your "holidays".

That should be "a teacher". hate this auto-correct. And my inability/cba to preview.:o

ACtually I just read the thread and I'm not sure they have I'm grumpy after a long day at work, in the conditions described, and I'm undertaking diversionary activity when I should be writing a job application (for a job I really really want actually, just hate writing applications).

I did think once about retraining as a teacher, believe it or not, but can't afford to fork out for the training and start again at the bottom of the pay scale.

My school is one of the offenders for having everything during the day, hence me being grumpy about it. Sorry!

Know what you mean, gaelicsheep. My school has an open plan workroom for teachers and I never attempt to mark in there, and sneak off to empty classrooms whenever I can. OTOH, this is the first school I've worked in where every teacher has a desk, so I shouldn't grumble too much.

Good luck with your job application.:)

Thanks I'm keeping everything crossed as I am getting mighty fed up at work.

It seems totally rubbish that teachers are expected, well have to, use IT in their preparation work and don't have proper access to it in the workplace. Are you actually expected to use your own kit at home? That sucks.

I work in Australia, and we have to use IT at work and each have a laptop. But don't get excited, we have to pay for the laptop out of our salary!! At the end of 3 years we get a new one and have the option to buy the old one.

Our work in this respect is pretty well-supported, and we can take the laptops home, so I suppose we're paying for the broadband. I'm pretty long in the tooth, and come from the generation of UK teachers who were not expected to be secretaries, IT experts and excellent practitioners of the art of teaching. Very occasionally, when one of my typos raises a laugh I point out, with considerable hauteur, that in the UK I was paid to have ideas NOT to be a typist, and there was someone employed to do that for all staff. Harrumph :o

Ho hum.

1265 guided hours which include things like parents evenings. 14 weeks holiday. The point I tried to make earlier in the thread was that so many teachers tell me they work 50 or 60 hours every week I find it extraordinary that locally I see so many of them out and about in the late afternoons once school has finished. They may work long hours but they have a lot of flexibility around when they complete additional work once school has finished and this is a benefit combined with family life and one which they rarely seem to appreciate. Neither do they seem to appreciate that others do not have similar degrees of flexibility around childcare.

My basic hours are almost 1700 per year and I am expected to work on premises for 37.5 hours per week (usually 9.30 - 6 for me) with six weeks of annual leave plus bank holidays. In addition to that I usually do about 10 hours a week at home and am often in work by 8.30 and often leave after 6.30. DH is usually in work by 7.45 and usually home by about 9pm. I never have the flexibility to sort out things like doctors/dentists appointments for the dc or myself during the day, often having to take a 1/2 day holiday of which I get far far less than a teacher to deal with things like that.

The sort of things that take the biscuit are when school sends out a note asking parents if they can volunteer to make tea for the teachers on parents evenings because they will have been at work at work all day and are giving up the time to see parents. There never seens to be an understanding that the parents might also have done a full on day and be arriving after a hectic journey having left work early at 4.30 or 5pm to make the parents evening. It just never seems very respectful of the commitments parents have.

These teachers you see out on the street seem to be an issue with you, marriedinwhite. Have they told you they work 50-60 hours a week? Or are you putting two quite separate facts together?

Anyway, their presence or absence on the street doesn't mean they aren't working hard, or doing sod all, you can't tell. How has their lack of appreciation of childcare affected you? Most school events are arranged by vote, teachers are told when things will happen by HT or LA.

You appear to resent the perceived flexibility of the teacher's work against your own. Take up such matters with your employer, or train to be a teacher.

I'd be surprised and taken aback if school said teachers were "giving up time" to do parents' evenings. They're not. Who is asking parents to make tea? You can always say no. Such work is done by students at my school.

'The sort of things that take the biscuit are when school sends out a note asking parents if they can volunteer to make tea for the teachers on parents evenings because they will have been at work at work all day and are giving up the time to see parents.'

Our head makes the tea on parents' evenings. It's better for the parents who have an appointment at 6pm if they are not trying to understand a dehydrated, cold and stiff teacher who has been talking and listening in ten minute bursts for almost three hours without pause.
Think of the teachers out and about after school as having worked from 8am til 4, often with a ten minute break for lunch. So after around 8 hours, you have a break, deal with your RL issues like shopping, banking etc and then working again for a couple of hours in the evening. Like echt, I've been marking from 5.30am because of the peace and quiet. I've also designed a couple of rather lovely IT resources for class using software unavailable in school, and links I can't access there because of the blooming filters that ban so many useful sites.

Thermos flask then.
Or hip flask.

I'm not complaining BTW, I'm available by appointment to parents from 8-5pm, plus parents' evenings and that seems reasonable to me.
My children's teachers have always been equally accommodating.

At the primary school my children attended at every event we were reminded how hard the teachers worked, how much pressure they were under, how grateful we should be, how badly paid they were, how they were exhausted at the end of term. I'm sorry Echt but it grated. And yes, we were told that the teachers were giving up their time for parents evenings. I recall a parents evening when the bell went at 7.30 and the teacher yelled "that's the bell, I'm not seeing you now, I've been here since 7.30". I didn't expect her to but neither did I expect to be spoken to like that. The point I am trying to make is that many many parents also work very hard, often harder than teachers, often for much poorer terms and conditions and often in much more unpleasant environments - think dustmen, sewer workers. I don't work in such conditions, however, when I speak to my clients I don't constantly complain about my terms and conditions of employment and I certainly don't raise my voice to them and I don't give them the impression I am doing them a huge favour because I'm working late.

YANBU at all

You did say your daughter is Y4 not age 4 didn't you?

The poor kids' exhibition must have been practically empty, there are hardly any SAHMs by the time the children are juniors ime (my daughter is in Y4 an I think there are 3 mums who don't work. I teach the class above hers and there are 2).

The idea of daytime events for juniors is totally insane to me. Everything at our school happens in the evening a concert, play, parents' evening or exhibition during the day? Weird and very bad marketing - how can anybody be expected to attend! We're having a Saturday matinee as well as three evening shows for our play this term but even with it being a weekend we're not too sure of getting a decent daytime audience.

And extra annoying that you did manage to get there and they closed early - I'd complain about that.