To think Scotland becoming independent wouldn't have any impact on the rest of the UK?

[lesley33]

Some in Scotland want it to become independent. I don't really understand why the coalition government is fighting against this happening. Will it really matter in the rest of the UK if scotland does become independent?

Seeing as all political parties are particularly odious (DC, and wtf Ed Millsillybilly - getting the brunt as the nasal blurb is being spouted on tv)

I for one would miss scotland if they decide to become independent, however I do kind of feel it is good it will go to a referendum if it does. I think it will probably even itself all out - scotland has oil and gas, London has a business hub both of which bring in money.

Bearing in mind I have one parent of one nationality and one of the other do I get dual citizenship - will I need a passport to cross the border?

I gained a great deal being educated in both countries and really want to sit on the fence, however I expect if I still lived in Scotland I would want independence, but that was way back then and not now so I wouldn't have any idea of what the Scots currently would like.

AberdeenButtery, thanks for providing some facts and hopefully give pause for thought for some of the anti-Scottish sentiment being spouted by some people on this thread. One flaw in your independence for Scotland argument is that most of our current crop of MSP's couldn't be trusted with a brush and shovel, never mind run an independent Scotland!

FlangelinaBallerina, as for the Norweigan model, something in the loosest of terms does exist in Shetland. (I am no longer close to this so happy to stand corrected on this) what I recall is that in the early 70's the Shetland Council negotiated a deal with the oil companies in that for every barrel of oil landed they had to pay them some money. This money was then put into a charitable trust to be used in the islands. Cue a wealthy council and islanders enjoying a large range of facilities.

Shenanagins, you're right about Shetland, I believe it was Jo Grimmond who was the brains behind that deal although I might be wrong. I also agree with your point about the MSP's; the SNP are the only party with a high-calibre of politician on their benches, most in the other parties are laughable.

Figgyrolls, I think the border control myth is just something that was fabricated by someone like Lord Forsyth back in the 70's; it is completely unfounded. The UK is a hugely integrated economic and social unit and I can't see an independent Scotland posing any sort of security risk which would necessitate some sort of passport control. Indeed, if Northern Ireland and Eire can have an open border I think the English and the Scots are grown up enough to have one too.

I voted for devolution and Donald Dewar became First Minister - and then it started to go wrong imo. Cost of building a place for Scottish Mps to gather was estimated to be £40m - but final figure was over £400m - for a building!!

Used to like Alex Salmond but he comes across as anti-English as opposed to pro-Scottish and seems so smug and arrogant.

Think the population of Scotland is about 5.5million and SNP got just under 903,000 votes and everyone raves about the landslide victory.

Alex Salmond wants Scotland to be part of European Union - which means giving up pound and converting to Euro and ironically instead of being 'governed' by Westminster will be governed by Brussels.

We're already looking at moving abroad and what our work options are - a country run by Nicola Sturgeon and Alex Salmond does not bear thinking about.

The UK wants to keep Scotland for the utilities that it will provide in the future - water and energy. Oil may be running out but Scotland has acres of unpopulated land perfect for wind turbines, nuclear power stations, tidal barrages etc etc. Scotland already provides water for the rest of the uk (i.e England). There is also coal left in Scotland which at the moment is unexploited as it would be too expensive to extract but in the future feasible.

Most Scots do not want independence, most people in the uk are part -English, part - Irish, part - Scottish, part - English as well as part - non UK.

oops and part - welsh

moshed - the reason that there are acres of unpopulated land is that it is owned and controlled by a very wealthy few to the exclusion of others.

Alex Salmond wants Scotland to be part of European Union - which means giving up pound and converting to Euro and ironically instead of being 'governed' by Westminster will be governed by Brussels.

This is total unwarranted scaremongering (have you been reading the Mail?) and is Just Not True. Is this the level of debate that's going to go on for the next two years? Lord help us.

I might move to the Shetlands then! Although be careful, some of them do want independence, and personally I think what's sauce for the Glaswegian goose is sauce for the Shetlands gander.

Nuclear energy keeps being mentioned- that may well be an area that an independent Scotland could try and specialise in. There's political opposition now, I think, but maybe less of it when we get closer to the oil running out.

For the people talking about passports and border controls- an independent Scotland would presumably be in the EU. Citizens of member states have free movement within the EU in order to seek work, with a very few exceptions for new members. So anyone from the rest of the UK would be able to live and work freely in Scotland, and vice versa.

I don't think the SNP have mentioned yet what they'd do about granting passports, dual nationality etc. Not all countries actually allow dual nationality anyway: the UK does, the US and China don't for adults, for example. If I had to guess I'd say Scotland would. Some countries allow you a passport by having been born there, or having a parent who was. Others require residence. There are a few different models. Last I heard, Scotland actually wanted to encourage immigration, so I could envisage them having citizenship laws that included as many people as possible.

Lastly, border controls. Highly unlikely. It would be an expensive and cumbersome pain in the arse. Tourism is an important industry for Scotland and presumably would remain so. A lot of the visitors either come from England/Wales or have been there first (eg Japanese and American tourists doing London, Oxford, Stratford upon Avon, the Lakes and finishing in Edinburgh). Why would they bother spending money to inconvenience visitors? Passport control on small islands that are at peace with each other is silly.

Aberdeen

My dad has been wondering if he can send my mum back for years its a big in family joke.

Was listening to the radio this morning and although one persons opinion I appreciate it seems Mr Salmond might be a little bit of a shit stirrer........

That being said, I for one would be sentimentally sad that we wouldn't all be together as one "nation", however I also feel slightly sort of whatever about it. As you say Border control is very unlikely to happen and would we not just run along in a similar vein to how we are at the moment? Its not like we are North and South Korea.

I was also being a bit tongue in cheek about the whole dual citizenship but actually would quite like a scottish passport

I find it odd that the coalition doesn't support Scottish independence (if that's what the Scots want) because

• 1. Basically screws Labour forever

-2. They are always saying they support the principle of self-determination (eg The Falklands)

I personally think that the current half way house whereby Scottish MPs have a say in legislation that only impacts England and not vice versa, and the differences in tuition fees etc. is ridiculous and it would be better for the union to break up. This is nothing against Scotland or the Scottish btw. I just think it'll make things a lot simpler/more transparent.

MY DH (English from the SW) feels that it would be a great shame if Scotland left the UK, mainly because he thinks it would weaken the "Britishness" of the UK as a whole. He (apart from a sporting context!) feels British and thinks that it's a more inclusive term than "English" - eg people more likely to call themselves British Asian than English Asian and he feels that losing Scotland would inflame the bigoted "Englishness" of some factions of the country. It's not an argument I had thought of before but I think there is some merit to it.

Obv he agrees that the Scottish should have a right to self-determine if they really want to and is favour of the referedum taking place if for no other reason than to decide the question for at least a generation.

I am from NI so think the referendum should happen but the rose tinted spectacles need some serious cleaning - if the Scottish think they can just up sticks and life will be some sort of peachy egalitarian utopia without Westminster, then I think they are a bit deluded. Those saying look at Ireland have a point. I am undecided on whether Devo Max should be an option - its seems a bit like having your cake and eating it to me but haven't followed it in much detail.

Figgyrolls, I would strongly argue, and not without basis, that the British 'nation' does not exist and has never existed. What many confuse 'nation' with is 'state' and I will definitely concede that such a thing as the 'British state' exists.

It is perpetuated by the myth that Britain is a so called 'unitary state'. Yes, Britian is a highly centralised political and economic entity, but the United Kingdom of Great Britain is less of a 'unitary state' and more of a 'state of unions' between different historical nations. One of the reasons devolution has been so asymmetrical is because of the historical legacies that reside in each of these 'nations' and their subsequent relationship to the bigger whole.

I think it's very easy for some to think of the UK/Britain (lets not get caught up in terminology) as a nation, particularly the English because they make up the majority of it. Perhaps during certain periods of history (World Wars, creation of the welfare state) Britain could be called a nation, but ultimately people reside back into their component nations and identify extremely strongly with them. This doesn't mean that people can't have both a Scottish and a British identity, and the ironic thing about the SNP (and particularly Salmond) is that it is a very 'British' party in terms of style and operation.

The SNP talk of the 'social union' which many have deemed vague but I think makes perfect sense. All independence is, in a nutshell, is the completion of a parliament and the ability of a nation to self-determine (as much as is politically and economically possible) its own path in terms of social, economic and international policy. There is no reason why everyone, including myself, cannot continue to read the same books, watch the same TV shows, eat the same food and speak the same language as our friends and relatives in England and other parts of the UK. The sovereignty of the people of Scotland lies here in Scotland and it is up to them to decide the future of the nation in which they live, it is as simple as that.

FreeButtonBee, Elin Jones, who is AM for Ceredigion and is currently standing for the Plaid Cymru leadership, said n a conference speech that, ironically, Wales was more of a country than England. She didn't mean this in a malicious or bigoted way at all, and her comments have to be heard in the context in which they were said, but she has a point. Wales has a parliament (I know it's called an Assembly but it has primary law-making powers now so it is a parliament) which is able to make decisions, albeit limitedly, that can chart a distinct path separate from other parts of the UK. If one thinks about it, England can't do this because England does not have a representative body that can make decisions according to the democratically elected will of the English people. There is only Westminster with its complex fudge most famously known as the West Lothian question.

I think independence for Scotland would help one nation more than most; England. I feel so saddened when I see bigoted skinheads taking the English flag and making it their own. In Scotland this couldn't happen because we wear our nationalism on our sleeves and are proud of it because it is healthy, civic, inclusive and peaceful. An English parliament, in my opinion, would ask a fundamental question of the English people; who are you? I believe they could then turn round and answer that in a self-confident and healthy manner and not feel they have to hide under this false banner of Britishness which the English have done for so long.

I feel British more than English, but the presence or not of Scotland in the UK is irrelevant to my identity. Others might feel differently.

Some people have mentioned England and Britain being used interchangeably, and being irritated by this. That happens a lot, but personally I've noticed it much more from non-Brits than anyone else. My NI in-laws are some of the worst for it! Although they may be atypical. But they of all people should know the difference: the Ulster Scots are called that for a reason. I've also met a lot of immigrants (through doing immigration law) who've told me that they thought Britain basically meant London before they came. They'd never heard of Wales, and knew about Manchester United but thought they were in London. So I don't think it's just the Scottish and Welsh who get forgotten about internationally!

Aberdeen Buttery your suggestion that English people hide under a false banner of Britishness is quite offensive. I self-identify as British before English. That's how I feel. Perhaps it's because I'm not 'pure' English if you like- I'm of Irish descent too- but I feel a strong attachment to these islands, and feel my heritage is in all of them. I love the land and history of Wales too, not just England (don't know Scotland much). My heart feels at home on the Great Orm and in Snowdonia. I like to get to the seaside and the mountains in Wales as often as possible. The last stand of the druids is as much part of my history and cultural identity as Shakespeare. And Belfast is my second home because of DH. Possibly the reason I love it so much is because it's a mixture of British and Irish, like me and my community. I reject the idea that this is any less legitimate or authentic an identity than yours. Fuck that.

So for you to simply reject this out of hand is ignorant. I would never dream of demeaning your Scottish identity- kindly do the same for those of us who feel British.

I also dispute the idea that Scottish nationalism is intrinsically healthy, civic and peaceful. I admit to not being big on any type of nationalism and flags, whoever it comes from, but there have certainly been occasions when it has not been any of the things you list. PS- sectarianism.

I am a complete mongrel with roots (only 2 generations back) from all four countries in the UK!

You lot are scaring me! Who am I?? What passport will I get!! Can I keep my British one???

Quite an interesting debate going on here. Partly to illustrate a point, I think it's possible to find experts who have polar opposite views on a good deal of the issues relating to Scottish independence.

The AAA rating debate - this is an article about an article, the original can be found here but it's a little heavy going.

A couple of quotes from the Scotsman article:
if John Swinney, as independent Scotland?s finance boss, sold off the rights to future oil revenues today ? which eliminates uncertainty over future price fluctuations ? he could ?wipe out Scotland?s national debts? and ?even invest in a Sovereign Wealth Fund like the Norwegians with the change (£80 billion or so)!?

On the contrary, an independent Scotland, with oil, low business taxes and the freedom to set its own economic course, will soon join the triple-A nations.

The second of these has been mentioned already (I think by AberdeenButtery but I could be wrong).

On the RBS bailout issue, one which really winds me up:
Here is a blog post from Joan McAlpine. Okay, she's not exactly neutral, being an SNP MSP, but in this post she quotes from Andrew Hughes Hallet who is a Professor of Economics at St Andrew?s University and he said
?By international convention, when banks which operate in more than one country get into these sorts of conditions, the bailout is shared in proportion to the area of activities of those banks. In the case of the RBS?roughly speaking 90% of its operations are in England and 10% are in Scotland.?

George Walker, Professor of International Finance Law at Queen Mary University, London and also Glasgow University, supported this position. So did Andrew Campbell, Professor of international and finance law at Leeds University.

So, Scotland would NOT have been 100% responsible for bailing out RBS just because the head office is in Edinburgh. Checking out the blog post shows examples in other countries where similar situations have occured.

In relation to defence, here are some of the SNP policies

We have a moral objection to nuclear weapons and are firm in our belief that when the UK government is planning cuts in important budgets, they should not be wasting £100 billion on buying a new generation of nuclear bombs. We have been proud to stand alongside Scotland?s faith groups, the STUC and community campaigners in opposition to Trident and its replacement and we will continue to do so.

The nuclear deterrent has employment costs as well. Research conducted by the STUC and CND actually found that the money spent maintaining the UK?s nuclear deterrent costs Scotland approximately 3,000 jobs. Faslane, the current nuclear submarine base, should be the base for conventional naval forces. This is the approach adopted by similar, independent nations. Norway for example supports a conventional naval fleet and conventional bases ? with more people employed as civilians or service personnel than the current position in Scotland.

On Citizenship from the Scottish Government website
Citizenship in an independent Scotland will be based upon an inclusive model. Many people in Scotland have ties to the rest of the United Kingdom, including familial, social and economic connections. An independent Scotland could recognise the complex shared history of Scotland and the United Kingdom by offering shared or dual citizenship. As a member of the European Union, Scottish citizens would have free access across Europe.

Clearly I'm stating all of this from a pro-independence stand point! But a few of the questions related to SNP policy on certain things and I hope I've answered at least some of these.

haven't read whole thread but keep reading about how scotland would be in deficit acc to Scot govt papers. you know that this partic UK govt is borrowing £141b per year plus?

FlangelinaBallerina, I didn't mean it in an offensive way, so please forgive me if it came across like that. What I meant was that because England is the largest nation in the UK, it has never really found a need or a want to distinguish itself from the larger whole. The term 'English' and 'British' is often used simultaneously whereas I doubt the same thing would happen in the smaller nations. Take an author like George Orwell for example (who's surname was Scottish and who actually didn't like Scots very much). When he talked of 'Britain', what he actually means is 'England' and never really thought to make any great distinction between the two.

Scotland is a very 'British' nation in so many ways. If you walk through the centre of Glasgow, for example, it strikes you as a stereotypical 'imperial' city. However, I think Scotland has always had a conditional relationship with the concept of Britain, whereas England has always simply defined it as an extension of itself.

I am too lazy to read all the posts but here is what can only be classed as the definitive answer:

www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/independent-scotland-could-be-exactly-the-same,-warn-experts-201201114752/

It took me over an hour to write that post so there's been a lot more discussion about Britishness since.

The majority of people who I've asked about it feel Scottish first and then British. Or just Scottish. There are a few exceptions who say they're British first. I think how 'un-British' Scotland feels was noticeable at the time of the royal wedding. Scotland's third city, Aberdeen, had not one street party and only one 'community' party for the wedding.

I think that the olympics will similarly show the 'split' between Scotland and England. My expectation is that some people in Scotland will travel down to the games, but that most will only be as interested as they are every 4 years. I could be wrong though, we'll have to wait and see.

wtf does 'PS - sectarianism' mean?