School playground bulling within NCT groups

[purpleturtle72]

Hello

I joined my local NCT group with my partner when I was pregnant and attended pre-natal classes with the aim, especially being new to the SE London area, to meet other parents and share experiences. The sessions were quite useful but with a now troubling emphasis on "making friends for life", supported by lots anecdotal evidence from the course leader. Fresh from the sessions the newly formed group began to bond and all seemed supportive with jolly emails bouncing back and forth. Yet 6 months on, "school playground" petty jealousies and competitiveness, mosltly vented towards myself, have worn me down. I feel totally pushed out by the group: I know they have met up and not invited me and when I attended the 'official' meetings, one in particular interrupted me every time I spoke, the others, bar one, ignored what i said and on more than one occasion members of the group turned their backs on me as they wittered on amongst themselves. I tried my best to win them over, and not lacking social skills, I listened attentively, I didn't 'go on' about my child, and I contributed by sending emails, mostly suggesting things to do or offering useful links on the web, most passed without reply. Not one to give up, I regularly attended meet-ups until my son was nearly four months old, but now I admit defeat. I have tried to join another local NCT group. A NCT neighbour suggested, I went along with a friend I'd met through Mumsnet to a meet-up of an amalgan of two SE London groups. We both wanted to meet up with them again, however, thanks to the efforts of one of them, who was outright rude to me on the night, thinking it was HER group, we were never added to the email list, and my texts to my neighbour now go without reply! All I ever wanted was to have friends for my child it but appears alot of NCT women, mostly intelligent high achievers with City jobs, are driven by snobbery and status, and they have already decided my son, as they have me, isn't worthy. I feel that NCT should include in their sessions the importance of excepting and supporting each other, whatever their social or ethnic background or other personal circumstances. NCT feels to me like an elite members club, overwhelmingly white and middle class in a very multi-cultural part of London. In light of my negative NCT experiences, I have now joined a local mums' groups and it's re-freshing to meet such down-to-earth and balanced people for a change and to be accepted for who I am. To close, here is a question for the NCT charity, why offer concessions to lower income families knowing they will be isolated by such a class conscious and elitist lot, only to eventually drop out?

Well, if you are now happy with the new group then why are you still upset about it? I think the NCT will always be like that, unfortunately. Those types of mums need a social life too - can you imagine how they would go down at the local Surestart group?

I was an NCT member for many years and like you am based in London in a very multicultural neighbourhood. It was predominantly white mc but so were the professional staff at the places where I had worked in the City. The only negative I can think of is that you do end up buying into the stereotype and I found it hard to break away from it despite being ready to do so around five years later. I find it really depressing to read about members who basically never left and are now elderly ladies still out their campaigning. I didn't want to become one of those.

I think its just the luck of the draw.

My NCT group of seven was lovely and we all (with the exception of one person who was always invited, but who spent a lot of time away with her family) met up every week after our babies were born for walks coffee etc before most of us went back to work. Two years later a couple of people moved back home overseas, and two have now moved to a different part of the country, though we are in touch via email, facebook etc, but I see one of the remaining every week and the other quite frequently and dont know what I would have done without these ladies in the first year.

Perhaps I was lucky but our group had no competitiveness, either about the babies or money (and I am easily the least well off) and were very supportive.

Now dont get me started on the PTA equivalent mums at my daughters nursery who are really scary, clichey and downright rude.

"Incidentally the whole thing was very amusing for me as I joined the group through a friend after our babies were born and so was an outsider. I have an Irish accent so they couldn't place me from how I spoke and they knew nothing about me so they were forced to be polite to me until they found out how to pigeon hole me. The atmosphere turned quite frosty when I said where I lived (not a great part of town) but I was very quickly allowed back into the inner circle when it was discovered I had a degree and my husband had a respectable job. Some of them actually repeatedly tried to figure out why I was living where I was living, as that was clearly causing them an issue - they couldn't believe they might like and socialise with someone from the rough part of town. I was even asked a few times when I was moving, even though I never mentioned moving. Odd creatures."

I had exactly this experience. The local woman who was frosty to me just couldn't understand how I had come to live in the estate I was living in because to her it was not to be entered at all costs (council/ex-council, very tame, mainly old folk who had bought their properties in the 80's). I think she was flabberghasted I could be educated and still choose to live somewhere, because there was just no understanding of living somewhere temporarily so why would anyone choose to live in a place like I did, with ONLY two bedrooms?

There is the potential for this in all groups, it isn't NCT specific. I've also never discovered tree huggers or nanny boasters, just normal people. They subsidise courses right down to free if you have low income so there was a real mix. I don't go any more.

I have 3 children, my oldest being in year 3.

I have been an NCT member for 7 years. It is swings and roundabouts with local branches. The people who join the NCT come in waves. The first wave/lot/group were great, the 2nd lot were awful and I almost refused to renew my membership. The 3rd were only one step better, but the current branch are great! They are a very down to earth group and a pleasure to be around with, and I think I have made some good long term friends.

It's down to pot luck, and I would not blame the NCT itself. They can not pick and choose who can/can't join, and sometimes the more dominant types rule the roost, for a while. In my experience, they eventually leave.

I think there is definitely something in the idea that a certain type of woman/couple pay the £200 to go to a class and meet the same type of person as them - if you get in on a subsidised fee and aren't really "one of them" then they feel cheated!

Our NCT group is lovely, and we all make an effort - even with one of our number who rarely if ever shows up - she still gets all the invites. Luck of the draw.

My eldest nct's group were like this to me.

Ta Ta I say!
I have since made much nicer friends and so have my children.

Dump the snobs I say

I can see where the OP is coming from. In my NCT group there are 3 people out of 7 who I still see regularly - the people I am still in touch with are lovely and definitely my kind of people. On occasions when I have met up with all of them together I have felt really uncomfortable. They all sit and discuss their 2 yr old's french classes - it is horrible and so pretentious.

I don't see that this is a problem exclusive to NCT though - it is just a problem that I have frequently come across in life - not getting on with everyone and not having the same values. Luckily, my parents taught me how to make food friends so I now have a really strong social network.

"good friends" not "food friends" (although that does sound like a good friend too)

hmm... I get on with my NCT group quite well but I must admit to being very self conscious around them.

When I go out with the girls from the baby group, DD and I put on whatever is to hand. When I go out with the NCT girls it feels a little more competitive so its Sunday best

I do feel fortunate that in our group there is one who tried to dominate, being particularly middle class she tried to rule. Fortunately the one who had a calmer personality yet who was a born leader didn't take too well to her and I think she has been brought into line.

My NCT group was from the NCT run coffee group I attended, antenatal classes weren't available here.

There were some 'superior beings', and some people who have moved on to other things, but 14 years on 7 or 8 of us as a group still get on, the children enjoy meeting up, we have mums nights out, dads nights out and a group trip away once or twice a year. I don't like everyone equally within the group, but that's fine. One of the things I always like was the mix of ages at the coffee group, people had older toddlers and lots of useful advice.

I also tried my local First Time Mums Group run by the health visitor and it was horrendous, one Mum in particular took over the group, had the 'best' baby and woe betide anyone else's baby if they hit a development milestone first. I stopped going, it was awful and I always assumed it was having of group of first time mums altogether with no perspective.

A friend I've made since then, though, had a wonderful time at her First Time Mum's Group a year later, and they have the same social outings as my ex-NCT group, so I think it very much depends on the mix of people at any group.

It doesn't sound like you like them much either, you already stated that you only wanted friends for your child.

If you are not interested in friendships with them because of who they are, then why do you expect them to be interested in you?

If you are from a very different position than them, then they are probably finding that they have more in common with each other, and are therefore their needs are being fulfilled and the supporting eachother aspect comes naturally to them. They are not obliged to be your friend just because you all paid to do the same baby lessons.

hi purpleturtle72,
really interesting post....
i think you've been unlucky to be honest.... you win some - you lose some! as in.. you have no idea who is going to be in your group.
i have 3 kids and have 3 nct groups.... i've also volunteered to be a class supporter..(open my house up for those all important first few weeks and host the first meet ups once the class is over).
to be really honest..... in my 2nd group, there was one lady who joined nct for free due to her financial situation.... honestly, i felt mifffed that we all paid well over £100 and she didn't pay a thing... honestly, i don't think it was fair. but, i understand and can see the good that nct can do and that it is a charity,...
so, i got to know her - just like the others mums... and, she's my closest friend from the group.

your group sound horrendous... nasty women... so stay clear from them... they're not good for you or your baby. try other classes and groups... and keep on trying until you find some nice people. ..

i also joined the local free post natal group at the doctors in town... a real mix bag.. most of them weren't my cup of tea be honest.... one or two were, so we met individually and left the others to it!

i wish you and your little baby well and hope you find somewhere better....(miles away from those witches!) xx

sensible words flyingstart!

I got on with my NCT group (I missed the course as ds was born before it started but got to know them at the coffee morning stage when they were still pregnant and ds was 5 weeks old). They were my lifeline when I was on maternity leave. I never gelled with the NHS group. It was large and everyone seemed to attend in couples and look at me because I was on my own. Most of those then met at the local group at our hospital. I went but ds was tiny and not like the other normal term babies and we had little in common.

The NCT group seemed to split into working and non-working and would meet on one of the days I worked (I worked part time then but it was apparently too inconvenient to change to another day, even though I'd chosen my day off based on the original meeting day). I stayed in touch with a couple of NCT friends but don't see them much.

Most of my local friends are those I've met since ds started school. From what I can gather that seems pretty normal. I think it is extremely rare to make friends for life from people you meet where the only thing you have in common is the fact that your dcs are the same age.

I find my group of 6 NCT the same. There are only two I like really and they're back at work.

We do get on but some mummies opinions seem to be more valuable than the rest of the groups views. One mummy was seen as the font of all knowledge as her child slept through and was a text book baby. My little tales or snippets of info were listened to and then the conversation would quickly return to others asking the Prime Mummy!!!

I am also the poorest mummy in my group and don't regularly shop at Selfridges nor do I routinely wear luxury brands and so its tough to not really be able to talk about Hunters wellies, new audi/porshe/bmw cars, fancy shoes, regular manicures, bugaboos, second properties and going on 3/4 holidays per year.

I feel a bit overlooked but other times when we are out and about I think they're great.

I am looking to join some new groups on my own as we tend to stick together for some activities!

I should have added in my post that I don't think the NCT have anything to do with my slightly negative experience - it was just luck of the draw that I was in a group with someone that hasn't been that nice. The other four women are lovely and I get on fine with them.

The NCT have been really great in my more local area and I've met lots of lovely mums through them nearer to where I live - it was just unfortunate that they weren't running any classes near me when I needed them.

Hexagonal I'm sad you had a similar experience but glad that you found out you weren't alone in what you thought. I wonder if the other women in my group feel the same about the queen bee in my group! I would love to know what they really think...

NCT was crap. There were ten of us, too many to really bond with. Several of the babe is including mine we born with severe health issue and three ended up in intensive care. As a group they were of little or no support to us at a time when we really needed support, in addition the group leader never contacted us to ask how we were and the breastfeeding line was useless. We paid a LOT of money to 'make friendships for life'!

However I did stay in touch on the emails, and since some of the women have gone back to work a more balanced group dynamic has developed and I feel overall more accepted and it is lovely to meet up and let the kids play. My absolute winning groups though was my antenatal swimming group, we just clicked and we see each other every week and one mum and I are especially close, meeting every other day before I went back to work.

It's hard to begin with, but keep on going to things, you will eventually find friends. I also loved our surestart, brilliant fun, even more so now I have an active toddler who likes messy play!

I was initially asked to join in with a spin off group that initially met at NCT. I was then frozen out. To this day I don't know what I did, but it really hurt.

I think it's so hard to be a new mum, and these women's behaviour really took my legs out. It surprised me as I'm usually a fairy tough cookie, but I think it was the unjustness plus the new babiness that got to me.

I joined a mum and toddler group and again found it difficult to break into the fold, but I signed up as a helper and that broke down the barriers.

One thing I do try to do now is if I am with my friends and the kids and a new mum joins the club, swimming class, baby gym etc I make a point if introducing myself and asking her to join us. I would hate another new mum to feel like I did in Year 1.

I think if you just pick 8 women at random, all of whom are pregnant, they are not all going to become friends for life, simply because their babies were born at the same time. Maybe NCT is more competitive in London, but I think you were just unlucky and the same situation could have happened within any group you'd been part of.

I liked all of my class at first, but there were those I gelled with more than others. Four years on, I see a couple regularly, keep in touch with a couple who have moved away by email and have lost touch with another - although she's friendly enough if I ever bump into her in town. We just weren't similar enough to want to see each other all the time.

It's a shame for you, because having your first baby can be a bonding experience, but you will meet new friends through your child as time goes on. Good luck

I love my NCT group, I really do, had a complete blast with them on maternity leave. I was the first by a long way to go back to work and they and I really made an effort to keep in contact so even though I see less of them I'm still very much a part of things. I would say we don't have a dominant person and there are no pretensions - or if there are we are all aware of them and readily send ourselves up. This of course is complete luck, they could just as easily have been superior bitches . I don't think it's NCTs' fault, I don't think it's your fault, some women are mean and some groups don't work. I made some friends at my sure start group, none at the post natal sure start, loads at a church baby group and some of those were cross over from other groups where we hadn't really talked, just different setting, different group meant we clicked more.

So the social aspect of NCT was great for me but do not get me started on the course content and leader...

I did NCT antenatal classes and coffee mornings and both seemed to be populaed by completely different types of people. The antenatal set were v snobby, cliquey and aspirational and I didn't hit it off with any of them. I also felt excluded frm the group because I didn't have a car and couldn't get to the meet ups, which were typically in 5 bedroom detached country houses.

The coffee morning set, on the other hand, were much more "normal" and down to earth, a real mixture of people but all friendly. As more experienced mums (with toddlers and preschoolers) they were a good source of advice too.

Purpleturtle I feel for you, don't give up on the NCT but try the coffee groups, mine was great. Are there any baby & toddler groups near you? Surestart centre? Bounce & rhyme time at the library? THere are other ways to meet people, don't waste any more time on that lot!

not just NCT, can be good way to meet people, but as ll posters have said, local park,s playgrounds, church hall playgroups etc. it wil ltake time, you will find your mates eventually. I have become more friendly with some of my neighbours, who have kids of other ages, and tha avoids all the competitiveness of having similarly aged kids which I think NCT in particular fosters, cos of course yuor group is made of women due at pretty mcu hthe same time. It is middle class and very whitye, even in multi -c areas. Also, not really atering for the non trads, e.g. singles or gay etc. ours expressed surprise that we were not married and kids were going ot have my name, comments such as "are you actually a real couple then" or " is that as kids wil be sort of more yours then". Give me strength.

In my recollection of our NCT group back in the mists of time it seemed to attract quite driven types, who were all broadsided by parenthood as much as the next person but felt they needed to put a brave face on it by lying through their teeth about how easy it all was.

So their kids all slept through the night at a few weeks of age, displayed incredibly precocious intelligence, met all their milestones months early and were generally a gift to the world.

imo you should take everything that new parents say with a huge pinch of salt. If you really don't feel you can get on with these people, then I suggest finding another peer group (parent and baby groups, church coffee mornings, etc...,?), but if you decide to stick with them you may find in some years time that they are in fact secretly having nervous breakdowns.

Our 5 strong NCT group back then (18/19 years ago) ranged in age from 21 to 39 (skewed towards the mid to late 30s) and from a wide range of social backgrounds- from blue collar to managerial with a huge range of educational backgrounds. What we all had in common was that we were ballsy, articulate and assertive people. We kept in touch for years after our babies were born- in fact one woman is one of my FB friends now.