AIBU to think that Cameron is telling nurses to do things that they already do?

[MyNameIsNotNurse]

Or aim to do given the oppertunity.
Link

David Cameron's 'ideas'
Hourly checks on patients to make sure they have had enought to eat/drink and are comefortable.
Isn't this just basic care?
Also to have members of the public doing spot checks on their local hospitals, isn't this just going a bit too far?

I would really like him to do a 12 hour shift on a busy ward, with sick people needing more than just the hourly walk around to make sure that things are ok.
What about the patients who are in need of 15 minute observations. Patients with poor mobility who take more than 30 seconds to get to the toilet and needs assistance every step of the way. What about the drug rounds? Then multiply that by 30 pateints for 2 staff nurses (some with little experiance) If 1 patient is really ill thats 1 nurse down so 30 patients beeing looked after by 1 nurse, and maybe 1 or 2 HCA.

Why does he not discuss the staffing issues, which most wards have the mountains of paper work which each and every nurse has to get through every shift which takes away from the care of patients.
Most nurses I know stay behind to finish paperwork, turn into work when they or their family is not well, go without breaks, work 12hours a shift, do extra shifts and Given up our measily 3% payrise over 3 years.

He's just making a lot of noise saying we should do things we already do in order that the public think we're not doing them and we lose support?

and a lot of things that are happening now under tories were in the pipelines under labour but put on the shelf so THEY didn't have to be associated with it.

the nmc and the rcn are a joke!
The RCN is never going to fight for fairness when they don't uphold it themselves, they charge HCAs who have been RNs in the past the same as RNs and not the HCA rate despite their large pay cut. Now if they do things like that they're hardly going to fight for a fair workplace!

The NMC and the RCN are abrupt and chippy on the phone, they don't LIKE their memenbers.

And the RCN refuse to register complaints about them via the phone - so very interested in their members

I know wards are understaffed.

But on all wards I have had experience of, some nurses and HCA's will be great and caring and others won't. If the issue was JUST understaffing all would be equally uncaring, rude or just seem not bothered.

So when my mum was last in hospital the RGN was very kind and caring as was one of the HCA's. But 1 of the HCA's was appalling rude and 2 others were pretty dismissive and uncaring.

I don't want to sound judgmental about all nurses, but I can only speak from my experience of the attitude of one I know well (a old neighbour).

I saw her outside her house one day when I knew she was scheduled to work and asked her if she was OK? She told me that she was on one of her "5 sick days".

I didn't have a clue what she was on about, so she explained that she and some of the other nurses on her ward, agreed that they would allow themselves 5 days off per year where they pretended to be ill, and that she was taking one of hers that day. She said everyone did it.

I was [shocked] and if someone told me this I wouldn't believe them, so I don't blame you lot if you don't believe me, but I swear it's true. Totally ruined my friendship with this woman.

Two points; firstly, those providing care on postnatal wards are not nurses, they are midwives supprted by care assistants.
Midwives used to have to be registered nurses first but not anymore, this has been the case for some time.
If you are going to make sweeping generalisations about an entire profession based purely on your personal experience, please ensure it is the correct profession

Secondly, my late mother received exceptional care from NHS nurses at the end of her life. At times I got upset if she had to wait for painkillers, 2 nurses were required to check these and there were only ever 2 on duty on a 17 bed medical ward but I understood they had to have meal breaks as they worked 12.5 hr shifts. I knew that occasional delays were not their fault.
I am indebted to them for their care and compassion.

My mother experienced excellent care, therefore all nurses are excellent - bollocks!

Of course the above statement is ridiculous but why does this nonsensical suppositon prevail the other way round, "I experienced crap nursing care so all nurses are crap"?

www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/8790955/Untrained-healthcare-assistants-leave-patients-unfed-and-in-pain-claims-nursing-watchdog.html

www.nursingtimes.net/student-nurses-show-poor-skills-in-treating-deteriorating-patients/5019377.article

Interesting.

Postnatal wards have had a Cinderella service for some time now. They are staffed by midwives and HCAs and NOT nurses. The number of midwives on duty has dwindled over the years.

Can echo the excellent end of life care someone posted about. The nurses who cared for my auntie at home were truly fantastic - nothing was too much trouble for them.

I'm not sure the goverment realise nursing and midwifery are different- much like the majority of the general public.

Well, MrsH failed to differentiate!

After reading her posts I was staring to wonder why she expected nurses to help her with Bf's, post natal care etc. Maybe those nurses gossiping at their stations could have dropped by her post natal ward to give her a hand. BTW, it is not a midwives job to provide child care to a patient's 6 yr old- a brief comforting chat maybe or facilitating a phone call to the patient's relatives to take over but what other fringe responsibilities can we tack onto already over pressed staff?

As a registered psych nurse, I would like to see the term 'care' defined as it applies to all health and social care professions. There is a difference between 'caring about' and 'caring for'. Some people appear to have the two muddled.

A general ignorance about the multidisciplinary team in health care is also a problem. A nurse is only as strong as the rest of the team who appear to get off scot free from any blame or responsibility.
Failing to dispense painkillers for example is not always nurses fault-try spending an hour bleeping an SHO to come and re-write a meds chart because he/she wrote up mcg instead of mg or didn't indicate time of dosage or more often, makes gross errors that nurses pick up.

If patients realised just how many times medication and other errors are picked up by that sharp eyed nurse....How many times we have to chase up transport that should have been arranged by , say OT's or physio's or social care teams. Yet all they see is that their nurse took over an hour to bring their medication. Yes, nurses could communicate the cause of delays better but so often it would end up appearing as tale telling or buck passing when it truly isn't.

nursenic - great post and very well put.

I am not for a second saying there are not issues within the profession, just have there always have been i.e the nights where students were in charge of 30 patients etc, 20 years ago.

However, these issues are a symptom of wider issues within the management of the NHS. Yes, there are some individual nurses who need a kick up the arse, but most of the failings are due to the systemic breakdown of the whole system. Believe me, I have been in it for almost 20 years.

As nursenic says that delayed medication is usually due to a number of failings including stock drugs not being delivered to the ward, low numbers of pharmacists available to dispense the drugs, slow internet connection when you are trying to download the policy for drawing up that certain drug etc...I could go on and on.

Believe me, working in those conditions day in, day out is soul destroying.

Nursenic I didn't have a 6 year old when in having my twins.Said 6 year old was in on a children's ward having an op during which time I was expected to do all the nursing.Not once did any nurse enquire as to how my son was feeling,not once did they check his bedding,not once did they check if he had drinks within reach,not once did they check if he needed anything........all they did was come round with painkillers as documented on some chart.I had to remind them about mealtimes and fetch food,take him to the toilet etc.

Parents work.Children should be able to go into hospital and be cared/nursed properly.Bar the painkillers and the obs which died off we never saw a nurse.How is an unsteady child expected to go to the toilet?What is a bored child supposed to do for hours on end?Would you expect a 6 year old(let alone a poorly one) to sit in a room alone for hours on end with no caring/conversation etc.

No they expect and rely on parents to do the nursing for them.Not all parents can.

So dire post natal care,dire paed care,dire gyn care and don't get me started on care for the elderly.Nurses on my grandmas ward thought it fine to leave her sitting in the same position for hours,no water,no communication with family(who live miles away).......

I could go on but you get the picture.I'm not alone.

Nursing care in this country is a disgrace.

MrsH did you read my post above?

Can you make any correlation between your and your families experiences with what I am telling you is happening within the system?

As I have said some nurses seem to be different and actually care about basic needs.I don't buy this management is the problem thing as being the whole story.It may be part but sorry I really think many nurses have simply forgotten how to care.

I don't care what my boss said.If I had a lady in her 80s in my care alone,ill and in pain I wouldn't leave her for hours sitting in the same position.

If I had a poorly 6 year old in my care I'd check if they needed help going to the toilet. Childminders would be struck off if they cared for young children in such a way not sure why it's ok for nurses to blame management and paperwork. There is such a thing as plain old empathy.

I have had the opposite experience. Care for one of my children after major spinal surgery was magnificent. And i never told them we were all nurses as i wanted to see what care would be like.

All nursing care in this country is not a disgrace. Just as it is not all good. You totally discredit your argument by making such sweeping statements.

Play on a ward is the responsibility of non nursing staff. Play specialists, play workers, tutors. You seem ignorant of what nurses actually do. How are they supposed to nurse if they are playing with 22 children or more? Don't be so silly.

Fact is that the paed nursing model is designed to involve parents as much as each parent wants or as a child wants or needs. Younger children want and need their parents to wash, feed and do activities of everyday living with them. It is not unreasonable to do this. Sounds like you wanted to offload it all onto staffs shoulders.
And if your young child is in hospital, your job is to be with him, not at work. I realise that some parents have to attend work for some of a hospital stay but you should be with him/her. I'm a bit shocked that you had a problem toiletting him/her yourself. What did you do? Make the child wait whilst you ran round grumbling for a nurse? If a child is so sick as to need M+H to get to a toilet or onto a bedpan then that's a nursing job. But paediatric nurses tend to encourage parents to do as much for their child as possible especially when a child continues to need care post discharge.

And as for your elderly relative.....why is it that "and family lives miles away" is no surprise to me. Displaced guilt is a major issue with far away relatives.

Stop generalising. You cannot extrapolate from your rather ignorant views and limited experience. and when somebody only sees negatives, it tends to imply more of a problem with the person, not what they complain about.

I wish everyone would ignore HrsHefferly to be honest

Her arguments don't hold up or make sense. I will explain

She holds that
a) there is an inherent problem with all or at least the majority of nurses being lazy and uncaring. Demonstrated by her sweeping use of the term nursing or nurses
b) this is not due to systemic and economical problems in the NHS, but down to their (implying most or all of) individual attitudes
c) the logical conclusion of this argument being that people who go into nursing have a genetic or personality trait which tends them towards laziness and an uncaring attitude

I think most would agree this is an absurd argument

Also the press and bad journalism stir things up in a bad fashion, so that people who have no clue what it is like to work in the NHS, or the complex problems that arise within the organisation are misled

So "and family lives miles away" - is displaced guilt!! I'm staggered by this attitude.

My parents retired and moved away - their choice. However as their health deteriorates, they have had a fair number of hospital appointments and admissions. I visit whenever I can. But I have 4 dcs and a job. It is not always possible to visit. Does this mean their care should be poor?

And generally other people involve their entire family in visiting and entertaining a sick child. MrsH- feel very sorry if you are the only living family member asides of your children but entertaining your kids is your job.

As for telephone contact re elderly relatives. confidentiality is an issue and liaising with family members over the phone regarding complex care needs is very challenging, especially when those family members never visit.
When dementia or confusion in a patient is present, it makes it even more challenging. Every hospital has an elderly social care team that can be called upon but they too get tired of dealing with absent family members who often know very little about that family member. Establishing that somebody has a benign, kindly interest is not always possible.

I only have experience of busy London wards but I have seen awful care.

My aunt was recovering from an op, told not to move but had no catheter put in. Needed a wee, nurse left her to try and use a bed pan despite her being told not to move her neck or head AT ALL. Pee on bed (quelle surprise) and then nurse shouted at her for it!! The call button was left out of her reach all night. The girl in next bed had had a tumour removed from her leg. Told not to walk by doc, nurse forced her to walk to toilet. She collapsed bleeding and disorientated.
No breakfast for my ant or this girl as it was serve yourself and they were immobile. It wasn't until I went totally ballistic at one lazy fuckwit that she realised patients needed food and water when they can't move themselves. Why did I have to point out the bleeding obvious?!

Fom a patient point of view we do not care if you are a nurse, a HCA, a midwife or a doctor. We are in hospital, unable to carry out certain tasks and requiring help from people in a CARING profession. It takes a second to pour water, a minute to put a plate a bit closer...all of these things seem to be beneath the staff in the wards I have been on. Thank fuck I have private healthcare.

More and more elderly people have relatives living miles away as not all of us live in the same town as our parents for 50 odd years.Many elderly in hospital no longer have a partner as they have died.They are completely alone and vulnerable hence the crisis level of care that many receive and I believe the gov at long last are looking into.

Misplaced guilt how dare you. Families shouldn't need to secretly film the shocking care their elderly receive or pay for nurses to go in with them just so they get basic needs met.

Re my son nobody once asked if he was going to be cared for by us.We could have left him alone at any time and nobody would have known or cared.I wouldn't have minded if we'd filled out forms which acknowledged we'd be taking over the nursing care but this vague assumption that mum or dad will do it all is shockingly bad.My son was sick enough to need care.If I hadn't been there he'd have wet the bed.

I wouldn't in a million years not be there if any of my dc were in hospital but seriously when you can't even go and get a coffee for fear that your child's needs won't be met there is a problem.There was a lady in with a teenager who took time off work because she didn't feel able to leave her daughter alone-that isn't right.

When I was in hospital as a child.I was in for a week alone,I didn't want for anything.My mother was only allowed to come in for an hour a day.We've gone from 1 extreme to the other and sorry I think nursing has got very lax.I won't be bullied out of my view and I applaud DC's new initiatives which are long overdue imvho.

Also know friends who do not visit elderly relatives because of abusive childhoods. Yes their parents can seem the sweetest old men and women in the world. Nurses, etc probably think their children are very uncaring not to visit.

Lesley Sadly it can and often is an issue bearing in mind that many of us feel guilt over that which we shouldn't.

I have had nearly 28 yrs experience of these issues and DH was modern matron/manager of a dementia unit and will vouch the same. Absence can make some relatives over zealous and over aggressive in their dealings and gentle counselling by staff has led to quite a few of them breaking down and admitting that. So I do speak from experience.

I never said their care should be poor. I said that dealing with absent relatives over the phone does make care and especially decision making more challenging.
Try calling say, three daughters and two sons every day because they all insist upon being spoken to by charge nurse as having info relayed to them by siblings in a phone tree means they're either less important or less caring. Those calls have to be made at separate times due to family work etc commitments then you get an abusive call from sister 3 wondering why sister 1 has just called with new information and "why haven't you called her?" Eeerrr....because she told you she'd be working until 7?

And this is not an unusual situation!

Agree boglach and to put a more positive spin on it, this is what I think should happen to help ward nursing:

-Urgent review of nurse to patient ratio's and legal requirements set which are based on the clinical need and dependancy of the patients rather than just the acuity.

-Scrap the AFC band 5 role and revert back to the D/E grade system where there is clear guidance as to what is a junior or senior staff nurse and with the reward of the pay rise and promotion that you used to get with this. Why on earth would anyone want a promotion where you are suddenly in charge of shifts but with no pay increase?

-Review of the role of the Ward Sister. I am not sure it's a one man job anymore, in terms of managing 30 + people and coping with the sheer numbers of audits etc required.

-Review of the mentorshop role (again tied in the whole 'E' grade issue)

Oh I could go on, and on...!

So all/most nurses are lazy and uncaring. It is their fault the NHS is struggling?

This can be concluded from what? Proved by what?

I have had instances of poor care. Some of that was due to individual nurses with a bad attitude. Some of it due to the constraints of a busy under staffed ward.

I have however also had excellent care

I take the whole picture. The economic problems, political issues, members of the whole team etc. But then that is a balanced, intelligent view

Not some Daily Mail rant about how shit all nurses are

By the way, for those of you so critical of the profession, why don't you become part of the Big Society? So caring and empathetic? Go and help feed and chat to all those neglected patients

Not your job to do so? Nurses paid to do this?

Pay more taxes then, to employ more staff