to consider going organic?

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We don't have money throw around but am thinking of going Organic. Especially milk. (an everyday cost) After doing some reading am thinking that Organic milk is alot better than "normal" milk. Do you only buy Organic? Why? thanks.

Regular milk is free from BST and hormones in the US.

organic milk is double the price here.

When we get home I'll go back to organic milk , carrots and bananas!

We use our local farm shop... DD then 2 1/2 wandered around naming fruit and veg. One of the farmers there bet her she couldn't name 6 thing he choose.... She did Parsnips, Swede, blueberries, carrots, turnips and butternut squash... he gave her a basket and told her to choose what she wanted ;)

Much prefer local food it seems to taste better as oppose to Tesco veg which seems to go off as soon as we leave the shop!! They have just opened a butcher and fish monger there as well if they sold loo roll i wouldn't have to go to Tesco at all!!

So what does non organic milk do to your bust then? Does anyone know?

If it can increase bust size I will be right on it! :)

Still would like abit more info from those in the know.
Just that google is so vast you can't actually get hard facts regarding advantages, disadvantages, animal welfare etc..

There's plenty of information on the Soil Association website that I linked to. It tells you all about their standards etc so it should answer most of your questions.

I read somewhere, an article by someone who did a lot of reserch into organic food, that if you buy anything organic, it should be milk and meat.

That rings a bell choceyes. I think I read that article as well, but couldn't find it when googling.

From a farming background myself and I agree with tunnelmaniac as well.

Even quite well informed and well intentioned consumers really have a mountain to climb if they truely want to understand how their food was produced and how it meausres up on environmental, ethical, welfare and health grounds.

Organic milk and meat can be produced quite legally in conditions which have very poor welfare standards. To most people the words 'organic milk' suggests naturally produced food with cows eating grass in fields in the English countryside. It often isn't produced that way at all.

Likewise, organic pork is often produced using crated sows in intensive pig units hundreds if not thousands of miles away from the UK. Is it better to eat organic meat from pigs kept in poor welfare conditions and the meat transported over long distances with a huge environmental impact.

My firm view, is that buying local from producers and suppliers you know well is the way to go. Organic has become a food marketing label and mostly people do not understand what it truely means. Cynically, it is often used to segment customers for marketing purposes - usually organic consumers are fairly high income and marketers know this so organic food is placed in the luxury food price bracket.

By M&S milk, 40% comes from our Co-op and all the cows are very well looked after.

Organic milk and meat can be produced quite legally in conditions which have very poor welfare standards.

You are right, but it still means (unless laws have changed) that you can't shoot the animal full of drugs and hormones, which is still a better outcome for you, if not for the animal.

Organic has become a food marketing label and mostly people do not understand what it truely means. Cynically, it is often used to segment customers for marketing purposes

Absolutely. Most organic food is a scam, especially vegetables.

Organic produce has to be to the standard required by whichever of the certifying bodies the farmer/grower pays annually for his certificate. He will usually pay around £500-600 per year, hence the huge cost to small producers like caffeine's gran. It's a great theory, but in practice does not yield enough product per hectare to feed the world and also has greater greenhouse gas emissions per tonne produced because you need more hectares to produce the same amount as conventional produce.I won't quote the research, but there is plenty. The biggest problem is pest and disease control on crops and animals. Soil fertility is easy to manage organically, and this can make a big difference to sustainability of agricultural production because fertiliser production and use has a huge environmental impact, but pests and diseases are constantly outwitting us. Fortunately pesticide and fungicide use is so expensive that farmers will only use what they absolutely have to and their environmental impact is much lower. A system of integrated crop management using organic methods where they work well and other methods when necessary is a good compromise, and I hate to say it, but GM may well be a Godsend in the future. I work in a scientific role in agriculture and ecology so see all these issues all the time as I have been to many differing farms over the years. BTW, dairy cattle can be kept inside, but fortunately most still graze. Growth hormones are not allowed in the UK. Lecture over. :o my real point was just that don't believe all that you are told about where your food comes from.

Hear, hear Morebeta

Absolutely agree Morebeta. Farming background here aswell. We had some friends here for NY and the topic came up. They had friends who took over and organic farm in Scotland and decided that from a welfare point of view the coes should go to the local and very good slaughter house 2 miles down the road, rather than the organic slaughter house 70 miles away.

While I am here British rose veal is produced under huge scrutiny and welfare standards as set out by RSPCA, the 'calves' are killed later than lambs, so stop urning your nose up at it.

I actually think people who turns their nose up at veal, but drink milk, are idiots.

As has been said The Soil Association provides lots of information. Some other links include:

A short fact sheet for schools: www.face-online.org.uk/resources/factsheets/discovering/organics.pdf

Summary info from the Food Standards Agency (note that their remit is food safety, they have nothing to say about environmental impact). If you scroll down there is a link to more info on milk: www.food.gov.uk/foodindustry/farmingfood/organicfood/

Links to lots of other organistions from Defra, who regulate organic and other farming in the UK. If you look around their site from here you can find some detail via lots of dry policy papers, if that interests you! archive.defra.gov.uk/foodfarm/growing/organic/links.htm

I'm disappointed not to be able to find a good public summary of the environmental benefits on the Natural England site (statutory conservation body) but the RSPB offers a summary and will have more in depth info if you want to search: www.rspb.org.uk/ourwork/farming/policy/systems/organic.aspx

The Soil Association and other UK organic certification standards are very high and, as others have said too, exceed free range welfare standards. There are lots of other certification schemes in other countries, which have varied standards. Buying British-produced organic is a good idea for this reason, as well is reducing transport (though for conventional foods, food-miles can be a bit of a red herring, with more fossil fuels used for fertiliser and heating in European greenhouses than for production and transport from Africa. Anyway...).

Local produce, especially if you have the luxury of some knowledge of the producer, is a great choice. We chose a veg box scheme from a farm about 10 miles away that is almost all their own produce, the rest from within the county. We get really good variety and value.

Maybe you can report back on what you find out and decide?

Tunnel, lottie and I have both posted links showing the welfare standards required for certification required by the soil association and other organisations. According to those sources the situations you are describing wrt dairy cattle etc would not meet those organic standards so I think it's a bit misleading for you to simply post things like that without anything to back it up. For those of you agreeing with tunnel, please read the links provided - there is lots of useful information in them which may change your opinion. People can't just pay a fee and get branded as organic.

MoreBetta, you say "My firm view, is that buying local from producers and suppliers you know well"
How would you suggest that city-dwelers go about getting to know the producers and suppliers?

tunnelmaniac, could you please quote the research, or at least point us in the right direction? (agriculture is not everyone's field of expertise and the EA website is frequently a nightmare to navigate, even if you know exactly what you're looking for down to document number!)

I actually think people who turns their nose up at veal, but drink milk, are idiots.

So true. And lamb are killed younger than baby cows for veal and people are Ok with lamb.

With pork I always check that it is British pork, regardless of organic or not as pig welfare in the UK is much better than that of the EU, from what I gather.

MrsMuddyPuddles - "How would you suggest that city-dwelers go about getting to know the producers and suppliers?"

A good question. That is exactly the problem I am trying to highlight. I now live in a small provincial city myself and buy at the supermarket and although I know quite a bit about how food is really produced, care about what I eat and cook from scratch every day (one luxury of a SAHP) it is almost impossible (without a huge investment of time) to truely know what you are eating with any certainty.

My children go to school with quite a few farmers and some of them are good local producers, sell on the internet and run farm shops. I have friends who run an organic farm. I do buy some of my meat directly from them but it is still true I buy my food 95% of the time from a supermarket.

Pragmatically speaking, what I do is to always try to buy 'in season' food and buy British to cut down on food miles. I also buy free range to at least ensure minimal welfare standards. I have tried veg boxes and occassionally buy organic in a supermarket but to be frank have found the quality poor on some occassions and very expensive and am still not 100% sure of its provenance.

I respect people who want to buy good food and don't object to the organic movement at all. I just think people need to be aware that it is not an absolute ethical, quality, environmental or health guarantee and not always worth the higher price.

MoreBeta, are you saying that Soil Association approved products do not actually meet the welfare standards that they say that they do?

From the Soil Association website:

"An organic beef system allows cows and their calves to graze pasture for most of their lives. They can be finished in well-bedded spacious yards, providing this period does not exceed a fifth of their lifetime. Organic cattle do not have to be housed during the winter, but if they are kept outside, there must be shelter, food and water. As with organic dairy cows at least 60 per cent of the cow?s diet must consist of grass, hay or silage."

Pigs:

"The use of farrowing crates in pig production is prohibited under Soil Association standards. "

"Organic pigs are kept in conditions that, as far as possible, allow them to express their natural behaviour. This includes being kept in family groups with free access to fields when conditions allow. In practice this means that most organic pigs will be outdoors all year round, though indoor housing is permitted in severe weather conditions, provided that there is plenty of straw bedding for the pigs, and continued access to an outdoor run."

So organic pork CAN NOT be produced in crated conditions as you stated in one of your original posts. There seems to be a lot of inaccurate information out there about organic food.

The Soil Association are not the only Approved Certification Authority for organic food. A full list is here on the DEFRA site.

Some have higher and some have lower standards. Organic food is also imported and under EU law the Free Movement of certified organic food is permitted and obvioulsy subject to other national certification bodies that again have a variety of standards.

While I agree organic pork in the Uk is produced to high welfare standards I have heard that organic pork imported from other countrie sin Europe is produced under far lower welfare standards and that puts UK organic farmers at BIG cost disadvantage.

I know MB but if you're buying SA approved organic produce you CAN be assured of welfare standards which is not what some of your posts have suggested. TBH most organic food in the UK supermarkets is SA approved IME. I haven't really come across the other standards in relation to food that often - mainly other organic products.

Sorry, those ones you linked to were specifically food but again, I haven't really come across many of them. I think everything organic we buy is SA approved. I am aware of other organic certification authorities for other products though - cotton etc...