to consider going organic?

[NameGotLostInCyberspace]

We don't have money throw around but am thinking of going Organic. Especially milk. (an everyday cost) After doing some reading am thinking that Organic milk is alot better than "normal" milk. Do you only buy Organic? Why? thanks.

I live semi rural and we drink milk from cows mucnhing grass in the fields milk is milk as long as you know where the source is imo ,

In theory, the cows have been fed an organic diet and not had certain medications administered (can't remember if growth hormones are used at all in the UK, I think not though?)

their life isn't any better (at least, it doesn't have to be)

growth hormone is banned in the uk from what i remember in a documentary i watched, they showed american cows which did have the growth hormones ,

I do buy organic and/or free-range where possible, we get meat from the farm shop normally as it ticks the boxes and is cheaper than the supermarket.

Thats a bit od, I can't see how it can taste any different.

Mind you my mum was disappointed when she bought free trade bananas as they didn't taste any different

I think there needs to be a welfare standard kite mark for dairy products along the lines of red tractor, but more welfare-specific.

I notice that site was a .com - I'd probably take anything american with a pinch of salt - their agriculture is quite different from ours (and I happen to have the aquaintance of a dairy farmer with 'organic' and standard cow herds (I don't think herd really covers the number of cows) and there's a lot less difference than you'd like to believe - certainly less than there really should be (except for the amount he can charge for them of course)

"I simply can't afford to buy all organic now, but I do always buy organic milk, yoghurt, cheese, flour then fruit / veg / meat depending on the price differential."

There is a list somewhere that details what organic products are more beneficial than others. Flour comes way down the list

"organic veg box is good if you're not green fingered- the food genuinely does taste MUCH better, I suspect because its fresh and (relatively) local rather than organic which is a happy coincidence"

That was not my experience at all. I tried a local organic box scheme and was really disappointed with the choice and quality. In fact the veg went off more quickly. I guess because we live on the edge of the Pennines the choice of locally sourced veg is going to be more limited. I got heartily sick of nothing but root veg week after week. I now buy my veg from a local farm shop and the quality is excellent because some of it is home grown and the turnover is very quick. I often buy sprouts that still have that morning's rain on them. They don't claim to be organic, but the veg is much tastier than anything I had from the organic box. I did some blind tastings on my family as well and they couldn't taste the difference between the organic and non organic veg.

One of the things that I am always at is the number of people who don't wash fruit and veg before eating them. I always do because it washes away some of the pesticides as well as the dirt. I always peel carrots to avoid ingesting pesticides as well.

I also grow some of my own veg. I don't have a big garden so I only grow veg that we really love and that taste much better home grown - tomatoes being one of them.

YANBU to do it, but YwouldBU if you are going to tell everyone about it at length.

I personally don't think organic is any tastier or better for you. It might be better for the environment.

Also: What Orm said.

"There is also a link between bust size and non-organic milk."

What is it then?

I know flour comes way down the list but my personal reasoning is that I use quite a lot of flour - making bread, cakes, sauces etc.

The diet was as set out in the book (its by Dr Marilyn Glenville I think - am sure some people will say its a load of rubbish but it seemed to work for me. If you google her, you'll get the website).

Just because a product doesn't have organic written on it, doesn't mean it isn't. You have to pay for a certificate to be allowed to label your products as organic, which can be expensive for small independent companies.

DP's grandmother owns a farm and sells meat. She used to have the certificate to label her meat as organic but she decided not renew it (think they last a year, not 100% sure) as it proved too expensive as she and her DH run the business themselves. They haven't had a drop in income from this as they are now able to sell their product slightly cheaper. Their stuff is no longer labelled as organic but still the same.

We buy organic veg and some other things, because its production is better for the natural environment and wildlife (not perfect at all but over all, better).

If there are health or taste benefits that's just a bonus. (I'd say taste with some things not others. Health-wise, don't know but I do remember being shocked one summer in the mid-90s when there was a general government health warning telling us all to peel carrots, as recent drought meant that there could be too much pesticide concentrated in their skin. I'm generally quite relaxed about our bodies' ability to cope with things but some fruit and veg are a lot more pesticide-drenched than others).

I have this argument with my MIL all the time. She insists on buying organic and makes disparaging comments about non-organic food all the time. She trots out all the usual taste/health/environment arguments.

I think it's all bollocks.

Here's a link putting the other side fairly cogently: skeptoid.com/episodes/4019

There's also similar stuff in the book "Panic Nation", Feldman and Marks.

Intrigued about the (supposed) link with bust size. MIL has never mentioned that!

i wouldnt bother with it tbh.Take free range chickens. have you seen how free range they are? They are packed in ashed with feed on the ground not in lovely open fields dancing around

1st choice - organic milk from happy cows
2nd choice - Non organic milk from happy cows
3rd choice - organic milk from unhappy cows
4th choice - non organic milk from unhappy cows

In fact - maybe I should get some cows for the garden? The eggs we get from our free range hens are fab :)

When I grow veg, unfortunately it is often only good for the hens :(

For eggs, Soil Association standards are very high and are more genuinely free range, in the way you'd imagine it, than is required by 'free range' certification (smaller sheds that the hens do go out of and scratch around, rather than huge ones that they could get out of through a small hole but, due to numbers in one shed, don't). The price reflects this.

That'll probably be true for chickens too but I don't know it for certain.

Iirc the soil association have quite strict welfare standards. Will have a look later...

It's true that as tunnelmaniac says, organic is not the same as free-range. But to achieve organic certification with the two main bodies in the UK, the Soil Association and Organic Farmers and Growers, free-range standards have to be met or exceeded.

As for your lofty sense of superiority to city-dwellers, tunnelmaniac: the issue for most of us, I think, is that organic certification provides information about welfare standards etc that is not always readily available otherwise. So people sometimes use it as a proxy for 'relatively responsible farming'. Agree that being knowledgeable about where your food comes from and how it was produced is the ideal, but ideals aren't always easily attainable...

Information about animal welfare standards from the Soil Association here

I def think organic eggs are much tastier - we buy organic dairy, flour, some fruit and veg (flirt with a box scheme for several weeks every year). I have never actually found a good enough box scheme. I doubt Abel &Cole is really local anymore than blindly picking things up at Tesco.

My local cooperative is the stingiest (everything was non-UK in the fruit box despite the big lecture on local being best) and their management committee is shockingly corrupt (the director who officially lives abroad siphons off the profits and has set up unrelated businesses in her home country). Most people don't even know this and really buy into the whole lentil-weaving feel of the place which was originally established when it was genuinely a few old hippies selling surplus produce from their gardens. However, if it makes people feel good and involved in their community then they are deriving some benefit from it and I have decided to keep quiet about what I have unearthed rather than exposing the corruption.

Dairy cattle can't be kept permanently inside either here

Not sure where the idea of 'factory farmed organic cows' is coming from...

Most of teh Organic thing is bullshit ineffective, but they do pump cows full of a lot of drugs so organic milk and beef makes sense.